http://www.mountainrun.co.uk/guided-bob-graham-rounds
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Bargain.
Thanks very much
It'll be going round the Bog Graham Round route, but it wont be a Bob Graham Round
Oh dear, it makes my heart sink when I read this stuff. I am not a fan of executive challenges/bucket list type stuff and I really don't want to see The BGR reduced to that.
Be interesting to see uptake on this. They at least point out it's not the best way to do it and that 'times change', but they are pushing the change somewhat.
The punctuation throughout the website pretty shite as well.
Mmmh. I, of course, understand the "traditional model" of club members who want to do their BGR getting their club mates to support them and then in turn they help etc etc. Been there.
But we have seen people from, let us say, the south coming on here asking for people to help and that support being volunteered by, in effect, complete strangers. I've talked to runners who arrived at the leg rendezvous to support, did the leg and never saw the aspirant again. More hit and miss than a noble fell running challenge.
So it seems to me that the only difference here is that someone is seeking payment for their efforts in providing more professional support and I'm not sure that justifies any pious "holier than thou" criticism.
People have been carried round the BGR for years, rather like up Mt Everest and the fees proposed here for BGR support are relatively modest in comparison.
I don't care a jot but I think it's all very interesting.
The web site is a shambles. Grammar, spelling etc is appalling. What struck me is there is absolutely no mention of safety on the hill; tellingly if you fail you lose your deposit, not we'll get you off the hill safe and warm. In my experience rounds don't "peter out" at road crossings and getting a runner off the fell and back to safety can be a big undertaking
I don't worry about stuff like this tbh. The round is way too hard for tourists to complete. I agree with Graham; it'll be interesting to see how it develops
An obvious thing is the web-site has been knocked up at minimum cost (this post has been proof read and edited more). My guess is they'll have few takers, and even fewer successes. Ironically I think they'd have been better off starting with three days "tours" and working down (or up!) to one day rounds. Three day success well presented on a good platform would have been much more attractive than their shambolic offer
One last point: are the tie-ins with Leki and L50 / 100 official? There's more about poles than food in the FAQ section
I think it should be applauded, more traffic, wider trods, more erosion, eventually large sections of the route will get the stone slab treatment, job done. Just a shame that by then I'll be too old to give it a go.
I understand this DT and also the points made by Graham too. I guess I have a problem with the mountains being used as a tick on the bucket list, things to do by 50 etc, by people who have no real love of the hills and no real knowledge of them. I often sit around with groups of friends, when someone mentions they are about to do the 3 peaks challenge with an organised group, and the general response from around a table is one of awe and admiration. if ever I have spoken about doing a BGR, the response is one of bewilderment and an inability to envisage what it is, "You are mad". But I have seen on here an had experience of people wanting to do BGR, just as a life tick to go along with their ascent of Kilimanjaro, swimming with Orcas, completing an ironman etc and have no real love of the hills or sense of what it is they are doing. A recent group I have knowledge of, knew the line of the BGR very well and had trained on it in good weather, but had no knowledge when it came to escaping/retreating to the valley in appalling conditions. they were not mountain people, lack mountain craft or are enthusiasts like so many people have been generally in the past. seems a shame it has to go the way of commercialisation. I'll not labour the point though!!
These are personal views so with my BG Club hat off but we were aware of this subject shortly before this thread started.
Most people who engage in athletic endeavour have some target or targets that they use to spur them on. This might be completing their first 10K to running the Marathon Des Sables but it's effectively the same: a goal to aim towards. The Bob Graham Round is, for many, no different.
When I did my round it was on my lifetime achievement "tick list" that I'd drawn up some twenty years earlier and had in all honesty largely forgotten about. It was actually the only run in amongst nine climbs scattered around the UK and the world. I'd drawn the list up as a sort of melee of different public lists from books such as Hard Rock; Extreme Alpine Rock and Rebuffat's 100 Climbs in the Mt Blanc Range but also included other prominent high profile climbs. Mostly I used the list as a form of encouragement to get out and visit different places even if it meant not doing the actual route on my list - I've been to Yosemite Valley for instance but didn't even attempt The Nose on El Capitan.
Tick lists (now often called Bucket Lists) were quite common in climbing at the time, but again as much as a prompt to visit interesting places as the routes on the lists themselves. There were of course those who were blinkered enough that only the routes on "the list" were worthy.
My first attempt on the round was at a time when it really was "under the radar", I knew about it from growing up in The Lakes but had moved away. These forums weren't around at the time and the running club I was a member of weren't long distance fell specialists (it was only after I succeeded that I found out that three members had done the round) so I asked on the UKClimbing forums for help. Partly supporting Graham's point, two strangers stepped forward but unlike his "ships passing in the night" scenario I now know them. On my successful attempt another stranger helped out, I would have returned the favour but injury prevented him from ever attempting the round himself.
I first met Mark Smith of this parish when he asked for help on his winter BG attempt due to one of his pacers getting injured. I think four or five of us turned up at Dunmail Raise on a very cold night to help out. None of us had met Mark before. That to me is the spirit of the Round.
Personally I wouldn't use a commercial service to attempt the Round, to me part of the challenge is organising yourself to do it. Maybe I'm "old skool".
Graham: I don't think I've seen or heard of any Sedan Chairs on the Round.:rolleyes:
Club hat on: We are discussing this.
Bob
A measured and intelligent response - as I would expect from you.
I understand "lists" - I refused to stop running road marathons until I had done my sub-3 hours as a Vet.
I am indifferent to the BGR but I've done a few fell races in my time and seen some changes in the sport since the 1980s; not all I which I like, but so what?
I rather doubt we will see charabancs of city traders descending on Keswick and suspect this will all be a storm in a tea cup and so any "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" need not risk apoplexy stuttering "not how it was done in my day".
And call me old fashioned but I would not risk my life with anyone who cannot spell.
:D
To be fair at £600 to £900 a pop with all the variables of weather I suspect that this idea won't float. I mean lets say I've paid £600 and, on the night of the off, the weather is awful. Who decides that we go for it? And if its the guide team, who decides what happens if we have to abort? There will be a high expectation of success if you're paying for it and yet, if you're paying for it, almost certainly a reduced likelihood of actually achieving it
As I've posted on FB site....
I think it goes against ethos of BG club and those that have gone before.
I doubt it will make a huge difference to the route at all, if you get 10 a year I'd be surprised, go to Moot Hall any Friday in summer between 6-12.00 and I bet there is around 20+ setting off.
It's not that new either, just better publicised, I was asked a couple of years ago to guide 2 legs as a fell running ML but I was already working.
I also know of a company who did offer a Guided Paddy, not sure if they still do...
Money wise its not that expensive, Not that I would do it...I don't think??..But I reckon £6-800 for guides isn't too far out. £130-£150 per guide per leg is probably the going rate....
So to summarise...
I don't approve, Surprised it didn't happen sooner. doubt it will make a huge impact...
I would like to see them doing more on the hill education side though.
I wonder if I could invoice Dark Peak for all the past BG's :D
But the indifference doesn't stretch too far Graham does it? I always welcome your thoughts, unlike some....
Some standards must always be maintained and a tortuous spelling and grammar test will be bolted onto the registration form shortly in your honour. ;-)
It's the abdication of personal responsibility that I can't swallow. The very antithesis of running in the mountains.
But then I'm the sort who thinks that everyone who has climbed Everest since Messner's solo oxygen-free climb in 1980 has been taking standards backwards....
This isn't just an interesting debate with ethical and safety overtones to my mind at least.
The BG Club, for better or worse, was founded based on certain key principles, all of which (to my mind) remain as valid today as they did in 1972.
Club members, again rightly to my mind, want an answer to the question of whether a round completed within 24 hours in this fashion will qualify for membership of the Club or not.
The FRA is a membership organisation. So is the BG Club.
Which is why, through a variety of channels, I have been trying to gather views on what members think.
And which is why that process needs to continue for a while yet.
My final comment, or you may suspect I actually do care about all this: I posit Morgan that you (understandably) are looking at it from the "Club" point of view but my putative city trader might just want to do the BGR and be indifferent as to whether or not he is welcomed by the "Club".
After all Messrs Heaton (A), Bradshaw, Heaton (K), Beard, Naylor, Walkington et al didn't do their BGR with any "Club" in mind.
Graham:
Not everyone who succeeds on the round wishes to be a member of the club, there was someone who posted on here about a solo round a couple of years ago who was quite happy to have done it and also that, with it being a solo round, it didn't qualify for club membership.
However all those who attempt the round do impact the Club: it's got our name on it! Any problems tend to land at the Club's door no matter how tangential - we've had national newspapers enquiring about footpath damage for example (that got dropped when it was pointed out that there were less than 2000 members across the 40+ years of the Club when there were some tens of millions of visitors to The Lakes per annum).
An aside: a few weeks ago I bumped into an old climbing pal who I'd not seen for many years. In the course of our chat I mentioned I'd done the BG, it turned out that he is Pete Walkington's brother!
In answer to your query, what do I think (for what it is worth)? I think that anyone who is paid for helping someone complete a round is not entering into the spirit of the club and, as a result, the round should not be recognised. How this should be administered is tricky. I don't have anything against this company seeking to make a living from their experience and expertise by helping people on the hills (guided runs, training, advice etc.) but I think this company has misjudged/misunderstood what the BG is about. Like I've said on fb, almost all us find great pleasure and enjoyment from helping out on rounds but it's not something we would ever contemplate charging for. I don't think the client can be to blame (after all we have all been guided/aided/supported on our rounds, albeit for free) but the commercialisation of the round by companies should be discouraged. How could this be enforced? Perhaps by telling them that the contenders they guide round will not be recognised by the club.
A short story: There is a village, let's call it BobLand. One day, in BobLand, the villagers decide to turn the village hall into a weekly nightclub. They each take it in weekly turns to provide drinks, music, man the bar, sort out lighting etc. The nightclub is free provided each villager helps out in some way (providing drinks, manning the bar, sorting lightinh etc). This nightclub is a huge success and provides much weekly gossip and excitement. However, one day, Farmer Charles puts posters up in the neighbouring village, let's call it SouthLand. The posters advertise this nightclub telling people how good it is and they can pay £10 to get into the club, as long as they purchase a ticket from him. Farmer Charles promises to transport them to the club and provide their drinks, food and music. There is outrage in BobLand when they hear about this. They immediately ban Farmer Charles from the nightclub but welcome with open arms all the villagers from SouthLand. The following week the villagers from SouthLand invite the villagers of BobLand to their nightclub. All for free.
From one Bob to another :o
Don't see what the fuss is about, a few years ago me and a mate did the Innaccesaible Pinnacle and Naismith's Route with Martin Moran, no chance we could have done them on our own so it was money well spent. They are offering a service, if people are willing to pay let them get on with it
Very interesting discussion. I completed my BGR in 2009 and rate it one of the highlights of my life. I suspect like many others my inspiration came from "Feet in the Clouds". I've run and climbed all my adult life and know the Lake District fells very fell. However the challenge of running for 24 hours over these hills was a scary and daunting prospect. Although a member of a climbing club I am not a member of a running club even though I compete in OMMs and other mountain marathons.
One of the biggest challenges for me was having very few contacts/friends in the fell running world and I was very sure I needed the fullest support to help me round. An entirely chance encounter on the historic Borrowdale 2008 OMM meant I met a BG Club Member who offered to help me. He provided all the hill support and much of the valley support too. I was and am eternally grateful to those who helped me - I had never met them before. But we instantly had the shared love of the hills and knowledge that what we were doing was special. I have since gone on to support others I also have never met prior to their attempt. It has been brilliant.
My point is that there may be people (like me) out there with ability and desire but without the support and contacts to assist. I feel the whole BG experience for me has been totally positive and I can't imagine now not having had that chance. So how does paying someone to help impact? For me I'm glad this was never an option but I don't see the problem provided the guidance, rules and ethos of the club are met.
I also agree with other posters that I don't see too many people taking the payed option, or succeeding using this path. Doesn't the poor grammar suck too!
Ha...love it! Just re-read my post and saw "payed" when surely it should be "paid"??? Let him who is without sin...!
'Isn't it Ironic...' that this forum critises grammar of a web page but not the forum itself. 'Payed'???
Moving on...I applaud his ingenuity in finding the obvious opportunity and trying to exploit it, though it goes against how I would like to do a BGR; though doing a BGR the way most people do it (road and hill support), is against how I would do it also.
'As a fell-running ML' as Ian is, I would prefer an in-sight, bivi in bag, have stab and see how far I get approach. I know my body limits and how to get off the hill safely when those limits have been reached - this however is the crux of the service being offered: most people don't have those hill days of fitness and experience to draw upon, therefore they go to a man who can.
I apologise abjectly for 'payed'. It must have been an abberayshun as I am a gud speler ordinerlilly. Maybe it was the excitement. Or the iPhone.
You should have gone for remuneratory. :D
I am utterly outraged.
I don't expect to get payed (or even paid) for the support I'm giving one of my clubmates for his forthcoming round.
However, if he doesn't arrange for pie, chips and a pint of Jennings in the Odd fellows afterwards then they'll be trouble......:cool:
'They'll'. Now you're at it, Mark!
Spelling and grammar aside, I think it's actually a pretty good website and I would applaud their efforts in making a living out of doing what we love. Their business is about a lot more than just BGR guiding.
That said, like many grumpy old blokes, I have a natural cynicism about those who want to move from triathlon or other endurance events into fell-running, but by-passing the skills and experience gained by actually spending time in the hills with a quick-fix payment.
That's probably just sour-grapes on my part though, and a general reluctance to accept that the way people approach things changes with time and circumstance.
Whether anyone completing a round using a paid guide should be in the Club or not - well, that's surely a Moot point........
I see what you did there.
Isn't guiding a significant part of our fell running and racing tradition. Where would we be now without it?