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Bob Graham Route Choices
Been wondering about some route choices for the BG. Has anyone got more details or ideas on any of the following please:-
1) line up onto Clough Head from Newsham house. When I recced this earlier in January I went with Bob's suggestion of striking up left. My gut feeling is that this was a longer way and direct up might have been quicker (Bob also mentions on his site the alternative of following the fence). But the impression I had was that going left may have given less boggy ground - is this really so. It was pixxing down in January, and I came back down by the fence and didn't notice a problem...
2) line off Grey Knotts to Honister. Has anyone an accurate description of the line that is more runnable down to the car park? Obviously going up one sticks to the fence, but going down there is a longer but quicker way out to the left...
3) route from portinscale to keswick. I've never done this bit, but from looking at the map there are 2 footbridges marked. Is the best route to follow the small lane over the river and then right on the footpath marked on the map; or can one get through the hotel on Derwent Hill and make use of the other footbridge marked on the map. There's not a lot in it, but was curious which was better...
4) route from Scafell to Wasdale. isn't there a scree run down somewhere, or is the best option the descent to the corpse road? Bob does mention on his site about cutting down right to some stile and then following a wall down to the bottom.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Regarding No4
There is a scree run, it brings you out right near the national trust camp site at Wasdale. Im not sure on how this sets you up for yewbarrow though.
Not sure on how to get to it either, it takes you down to Lingmell Gill from a quick check of my not so detailed map.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
[quote=
2) line off Grey Knotts to Honister. Has anyone an accurate description of the line that is more runnable down to the car park? Obviously going up one sticks to the fence, but going down there is a longer but quicker way out to the left...[/quote]
When you go over the stile on the summit of Grey Knotts go straight on (to follow the fence you would go to the right thats East after the stile) after about 20m a trod will be visibly going down but to the left, its not too hard to find, it goes further left than you think it should but its very fast.
Bill
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Re 1: The normal route is to take a bee line from Newsham initially via trods and then over damp terrain to a stile in the fence on the Old Coach Road and then up between two streamless grass gullies that are obvious from below. At the top of the gullies turn slightly right and then up the headwall either on the right to hit the ridge or alternatively pick up an indistinct trod just to the left of the steepest ground. There is also an alternative after Newsham namely to swing further to the right via indistinct trods to pick up the Old Coach Road further to the west and then follow that until the aforementioned stile.
Re 2: I agree the route described is far quicker than the fence in descent (ie clockwise). From the summit (which I regard as the top immediately to the south east of the fence corner) go due north over the fence (no stile) and then trend well over to the left on a path.
Re 3: I wasn't even aware of the other footbridge until I checked the map which actually shows 3 footbridges but only one (the one furthest from Derwentwater) with a public right of way. This is the one everyone uses on the BG.
Re 4: I did the scree run on my BG but that is the only time I have done it. Generally I prefer the gentler descent (although still steep in part) further to the left. The scree run is only about 200ft in altitude so the advantage of its speed is minimal. I regard the additional risk of the steep ground and the additional stiles and fence to climb as negating this advantage but as usual it is really down to personal preference as there is very little difference between the 2 routes in time. They both bring you down to the Brackenclose.
By the way I have counted over 40 significant route variations on the BG clockwise. There are no doubt several more on the anti-clockwise round.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
What about coming off Calva? Is it worth taking the east ridge instead of the awful ground to the south?
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
I much prefer the fence to the east from the top of Great Calva and then down by the stream to the river as the heathery ground to the south is trackless and dangerous for my ankles. The extra distance is very small.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Any other significant route choices a budding BGer should be aware of? I've studied the information at Bob's site and poured over the maps, but I guess there's a lot of experience out there...
Chas - you mentioned about 40 significant choices. Would you be prepared to share some of those please?
I'm hoping to do a BG in 2008, and this year is one of experimentation and hopefully some support work for others. Early days yet I know!
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
There are many route choices but most of them are only minor.
The only way to do it is to recce recce recce.
Help with as many others as you can.
Get good pacers and ensure you are of the same mind when it comes to route.
On the day stick to the route you know and enjoy it.
I found it good not to plan to the smallest detail, on the day you may need to be flexible.
AA
:)
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Swiss Toni
What about coming off Calva? Is it worth taking the east ridge instead of the awful ground to the south?
Tell me about it, not fun with full camping gear and three days food :mad:
Bill
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
I;ve run both routes off Calva and they took similar amounts of time - very little in it. What i think is important and often understated is that i quite enjoyed going down the east ridge and thought the south ridge was an unenjoyable plod.
There's something in the notion that when you know an unpleaseant section is coming up, you instinctively slow down so whilst the timing of the 2 ways off Calva might suggest one thing, it would be interesting to note how it affects the climb up Calva or even the run off Skiddaw! Just a thought...
There is another factor that comes into play, and that is there's arguably less navigation to do coming off the east side. Of course, what would be perfect would be a strip of recently cropped heather on the south ridge so that the shortest route is also the most enjoyable!
Doing leg 2 tomorrow on much needed day off (hopefully the weather will behave). Not too many route choices there, bar way up Clough Head.
Incidentally, I do have support lined up, but if anyone fancies recceing a leg on 30th June this year, that's when i'll be doing my round.
ST
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
An issue you havent discussed.
Several reccies have proved to me that the best route up Skiddaw is to go up either the gully to the north of millside and west of little man, (sheltered) which is faster than the main latrigg path, and a recent reccie said going up the path to carlside is faster still. Not surprising. It is the best part of a mile shorter. But if you try this, dont be tempted by the footpaths to millside, they are bad. Head far enough up the A591 to take the road to millside.
The heather off calva is a lot worse than it was 3/4years ago, particularly if you head straight for the sheepfold: but I am still convinced the best line across martcrag, and the caldew valley floor for that matter, is to skirt it on the west side then take a dead reckon beeline for the RH bank of the stream gully that points SE heading just east of blencathra summit. (dont have my bearings with me) I noticed in a reccie a couple of weeks ago, that for as long as you follow the spur line just west of south of calva more towards skiddaw house, the running is really fast and the heather is short, it is only when you turn for the sheepfold the problems start.
So I am guessing, but I think following that ridge almost to the bottom before turning for blencathra might give a good line of fast running to the bottom. It is certainly less steep than E of Calva, and the caldew is narrower.
Clough head: I have tried a couple of routes and never improved on going just left.
One more to consider is the route to red pike from yewbarrow
Conventional wisdom is to find a long traversing rake across patches of scree that hits the yew barrow/red pike col: Ive had a couple of goes at dropping straight down one of the steep grassy slopes between the screes from a couple of hundred feet height above the col, heading straight for red pike. It is shorter by a couple of hundred m but loses and extra 50 feet height. The descent is no worse than some of that scree crossing, and it can be wet after rain. Im guessing that it is quicker on a dry day.
Grey Knotts, just head straight north, it is fast all the way down! when low down stay on the ridge of one of the spurs, before dropping to the rough road to the quarry hitting it about 300m west of the quarry.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alwaysinjured
the best route up Skiddaw .....
An excellent variation that I've not heard of before. I think you mean Millbeck, not Millside?
So the proposed route is: A591, road to Millbeck, somehow through to the dams, up Slades beck to reach Carlside tarn, then up to summit?
Two qs.: is it obvious through Millbeck to get to the start of the fell eg. the dams; and once at Carlside tarn do you aim across the hill to hit the summit directly, or just go straight up to 261285 then along the ridge to the summit?
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
When Billy Bland did his walk of the Bob Graham in 18h or so;) he apparently studied the map in earnest and presumably worked out some shortcuts. Are any of these known?
And what about the actual route taken by Mark Hartell when he attempted to beat Billy's record - is that published anywhere (I have the summit time splits, but no detail of the specifc route between them).
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thatusernameisalreadyused
An excellent variation that I've not heard of before. I think you mean Millbeck, not Millside?
So the proposed route is: A591, road to Millbeck, somehow through to the dams, up Slades beck to reach Carlside tarn, then up to summit?
Two qs.: is it obvious through Millbeck to get to the start of the fell eg. the dams; and once at Carlside tarn do you aim across the hill to hit the summit directly, or just go straight up to 261285 then along the ridge to the summit?
Yes Millbeck. Bad memory!
To go up the beck, you go straight on at the roadcrossing in milbeck. it says private, but dont worry about it. The map is spot on. You cross left at a dam, back right higher up. Look for the path. It goes all the way up but every now and then you lose it for a few yards and have to look. Kicks up at steeper at the end, but not for long.
Just use the tarn path to skiddaw, which hits the ridge 400m short of the top. It is better than bolder hopping.
But having done both of them, try carlside first - the gully is good to keep out of wind.
PS If you are after trying novelties, i once turned right 100m at blencathra then dropped down the gully to the right of halls fell ridge. I got down a couple of minutes quicker. A couple of hairy bits - but they can probably be avoided right. ANd you dont run the risk of tripping headlong...which I have done before on the ridge at night in rain.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alwaysinjured
Yes Millbeck. Bad memory!
To go up the beck, you go straight on at the roadcrossing in milbeck. it says private, but dont worry about it. The map is spot on. You cross left at a dam, back right higher up. Look for the path. It goes all the way up but every now and then you lose it for a few yards and have to look. Kicks up at steeper at the end, but not for long.
Just use the tarn path to skiddaw, which hits the ridge 400m short of the top. It is better than bolder hopping.
But having done both of them, try carlside first - the gully is good to keep out of wind.
I'm going to try this when i next recce leg 1. I'll compare it to my 'orthodox' time/experience and let you know how they compare. Won;t be back there until march though. Never thought to change that bit...
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Swiss Toni
I'm going to try this when i next recce leg 1. I'll compare it to my 'orthodox' time/experience and let you know how they compare. Won;t be back there until march though. Never thought to change that bit...
If you want a weekday recce partner for BG legs , Im game , if the weather looks ok
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Re the Millbeck way up Skiddaw. We tried this and although we got to the top of Skiddaw a couple of minutes quicker than via Jenkin Hill we felt that it was far more tiring particularly at the start of such a long run as the BG. Firstly there is the 2 mile road run to Millbeck when it is so easy to go too fast. Secondly the path up Carl Side and then again up to the summit is at a significantly steeper angle than Jenkin Hill route. Again this is personal preference but not many go the Millbeck route so I suspect that most find the more gentle Jenkin Hill route preferable. BG is about preserving energy more than trying to do things as fast as possible.
One other significant route variation is of course Dollywaggon to Fairfield. I don't like trackless tussocky descents so the route round the back of the tarn and out and back from Grisedale Hause was always dropped in favour of the path down to the Tarn outflow and then the path up to the right of Cofa Pike. We once timed it and the Cofa Pike route was 3 mins quicker (and easier on the ankles on descent).
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chas
Dollywaggon to Fairfield: the path down to the Tarn outflow and then the path up to the right of Cofa Pike.
This also offers a chance to get some water too!
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Another significant alternative is between Pike o' Stickle and Rossett Pike. Most BGers go via the Martcrag Moor, the stream and Black Crags. However I always found that very wet over Martcrag Moor, slow down to the stream (no path and bouldery) and slow and tiring up the paths below Black Crags. I eventually went round on the path by Stake Pass. It is much further this way but saves a few hundred feet of ascent and is on goodish paths all the way is generally runable. My advice is to try both and see which you prefer. I reckon the difference in time is minimal.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chas
Another significant alternative is between Pike o' Stickle and Rossett Pike.
I agree with your assessment of that Chas. But I prefer the shorter route, as generally I'm looking to walk more and run less on the BG. Thus my interest in shortcuts. I'm coming from a strong walking background, and have been training on the running side of it as I see the need to cover ground fast when applicable. Problem is the pounding takes its toll when the body is not used to it .http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/images/icons/icon9.gif
As a generalisation, how do most people approach their BG in terms of walking/running?
I've heard a general rule that most 'walk all the uphills and run the flats and downs'. But clearly if one were to take the longer but easier path each time, then a run would be essential. Thus in the case you mentioned above, one would have to run from Stake Pass to Rossett Pike. And let's consider the Helvellyn ridge: is everyone running the Clough Head to Helvellyn, or do they walk most of that when it's uphill? How strictly is this maxim adhered to on 22/23hr BG attempts?
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
I took 23hr 48min for my BG. I am a very average fellrunner who really comes from a fellwalking background. My rule was to run the descents where possible. There are relatively few flat bits but generally they need to be run. After about halfway however the definition of "run" changes to something akin to a "shuffle" at best. On the clockwise round (which I would always recommend) there is relatively little running after Stake Pass, apart from after Robinson when fortunately for me I had plenty of time and therefore could walk most of the way back into Keswick (except most of the downhill bits).
One of the keys to a successful BG is to not to go off too fast on the first 2 legs where the ground is generally pretty runable. Certainly you shouldn't be running any of the uphills unless you want to do it in less than say 22hours.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chas
Re the Millbeck way up Skiddaw. We tried this and although we got to the top of Skiddaw a couple of minutes quicker than via Jenkin Hill we felt that it was far more tiring particularly at the start of such a long run as the BG. Firstly there is the 2 mile road run to Millbeck when it is so easy to go too fast. Secondly the path up Carl Side and then again up to the summit is at a significantly steeper angle than Jenkin Hill route. Again this is personal preference but not many go the Millbeck route so I suspect that most find the more gentle Jenkin Hill route preferable. BG is about preserving energy more than trying to do things as fast as possible.
One other significant route variation is of course Dollywaggon to Fairfield. I don't like trackless tussocky descents so the route round the back of the tarn and out and back from Grisedale Hause was always dropped in favour of the path down to the Tarn outflow and then the path up to the right of Cofa Pike. We once timed it and the Cofa Pike route was 3 mins quicker (and easier on the ankles on descent).
re the western routes to skiddaw.
(a) I think the difference is at least 5 minutes - I reckon 6-7: there is at least a K in distance, so I dont think it as easily dismissed when the target is only 85-90
(b) You had the choice of going slower on the climb, getting there at the same time, but less tired - it is about good pacing
(c) The gradient on the main path is not as consistent as you make it sound. It kicks up steep after the top car park behind latrigg for example at least as steep as carlside.
(d) I think it is more economical to have flat to run, then hill to walk, than trying to run an uphill gradient however shallow, which even if not physically destructive, running uphill is not good on the mind.
(e) There must be at least 10 hills steeper than carlside on the BG: some a lot steeper: they go with the territory.
I think everyone should try it, then decide. Certainly try the gully route in strong wind: it is a sheltered valley.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
According to my map software in one mile from the dip after the monument on the Jenkin Hill route (the steepest part) you ascend 1167 ft. This compares with 1677ft in a mile up the steepest part of the Carlside ascent so it is significantly more severe as is the part from Carlside col (643 ft in 0.34 mile) to the summit ridge. My experience is that an angle of about 1000ft per mile is about the most efficient. Anything much steeper than this slows me down (and/or saps my energy) considerably.
However I agree that any BGer should recci both routes and then choose.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
[quote=Thatusernameisalreadyused;6499]Been wondering about some route choices for the BG. Has anyone got more details or ideas on any of the following please:-
1) line up onto Clough Head from Newsham house. When I recced this earlier in January I went with Bob's suggestion of striking up left.
The first time I reccied it and also the first time that I supported on this leg, I roughly followed the fence to the stile then basically straight up to join the skyline about 150m East of the summit. On future reccies and on my eventual round I went further left, both in the marshy field and once over the Old Coach road. This way is definitely much drier underfoot and also firmer. I felt that the ground on the direct line was "springy" and wasted quite a bit of energy.
2) line off Grey Knotts to Honister.
From the summit of GK, go over the stile close to the summit rocks then bear slightly left rather than follow the path to the right. This gets you onto a grassy line heading down and generally left until you come out onto broad grassy slopes. At the foot of these is an obvious sharp ridge between two gills with a path on top of it. Down this then traverse right to drop into the quarry (not the YHA) car park. Basically it joins the route of the Borrowdale race. The other alternative is to follow the fence but where it begins to bend left, head rightwards to follow grass ramps down between the rocks. Try both.
4) route from Scafell to Wasdale. isn't there a scree run down somewhere, or is the best option the descent to the corpse road? Bob does mention on his site about cutting down right to some stile and then following a wall down to the bottom.
I think that the scree run is quicker - Ali did the round the same day as me and was about five minutes behind - he took the scree run while I took the grassy line further left. He was in the car park before me. Note that all three descents off the fell here join up again at Brackenclose just before the NT car park. The scree run is fairly easy to find - it is about 100m to the right of the obvious kink in the edge of the ridge and roughly where you come to the edge when descending.
With all these slight variations, the best thing is to get out and recce them and figure out what is best for you. Then let your pacers know what you want to do.
Good luck!
Bob
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
[quote=Thatusernameisalreadyused;7071]When Billy Bland did his walk of the Bob Graham in 18h or so;) he apparently studied the map in earnest and presumably worked out some shortcuts. Are any of these known?
I think the only commonly known one is the ramp line on the Langdale face of Hanging Knotts, rather than going round by Ore Gap.
As for the best way off Great Calva - I did the East Ridge once, suffice to say I've never been back! The advantages of taking the south ridge are that you are on faster ground for longer and have less *big* heather to negotiate. Also if the river is running high then about 200m upstream of the normal crossing area a fence crosses the river and you can use this Indiana Jones style to get across! On one of my attempts there was another party who left GC at the same time but went via the East Ridge and who were on a faster schedule than I was, yet despite taking a planned five minute break at the river we were on Blencathra between five and ten minutes ahead of them.
The only other major decision is whether to go Calf Crag - Sergeant Man - High Raise or Calf Crag - High Raise - Sergeant Man. I reckon the former is quicker as you are on paths rather than striking across country to get to High Raise.
Bob
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thatusernameisalreadyused
4) route from Scafell to Wasdale. isn't there a scree run down somewhere, or is the best option the descent to the corpse road? Bob does mention on his site about cutting down right to some stile and then following a wall down to the bottom.
I did a recce here with someone who had done a sub 19h BGR and he went via the corpse road but he is a fast runner, I prefer the scree run, its less tiring for me as I'm not a fast runner, just let gravity do its work :)
My prefered route when you get to the fence is to turn right, then when you can follow a faint path down to Lingmell gill and follow the main path back to Brackenclose.
Bill
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bob
As for the best way off Great Calva - I did the East Ridge once, suffice to say I've never been back! The advantages of taking the south ridge are that you are on faster ground for longer and have less *big* heather to negotiate. Also if the river is running high then about 200m upstream of the normal crossing area a fence crosses the river and you can use this Indiana Jones style to get across! On one of my attempts there was another party who left GC at the same time but went via the East Ridge and who were on a faster schedule than I was, yet despite taking a planned five minute break at the river we were on Blencathra between five and ten minutes ahead of them.
Bob
Last week coming off Skiddaw went to the left of hare crag rather than over it, horrendous, I was bashing through knee deep heather most of the time or following ditches, I take it the way to go is over hare crag that would mean joining the road skiddaw house near the south ridge.
I then went up Great galva between dead beck and the south ridge which was not much better, dropped off galva via the ground to the right of the fence, this was not too bad compared to where I'd been but looking back from Mungrisdale common the south ridge looked a better line.
So is it quicker to use the south ridge for both ascent and descent or is there a secret dry path hidden in the heather.
I'll read your notes next time Bob as I couldn't find a dry way across the river and had to strip off :eek: at least the freezing level was a couple of hundred feet higher
Bill
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
In studying the split times of Billy Bland, Stuart Bland and Mark Hartell (http://www.thebunyans.plus.com/mh/fe...fastestBG.html) there seem to be a few interesting variations, where Billy has moved significantly faster than the other two - suggesting maybe a somewhat different route?
Major variations:-
Steel Fell - Calf Crag
Scafell - Wasdale
Red Pike - Steeple
Kirkfell - Great Gable
Minor variations:-
Green Gable - Brandreth
Hindscarth - Robinson
Also, Mark has several instances where he's significantly slower than the other two (eg. his descent to Thelkeld). Obviously he may have had a problem or stopped for a break or whatever, but maybe there's an alternative that the Blands knew that Mark didn't!
I presume, as no one's mentioned (and I've not found) anything, that there is no proper writeup of Mark's, Billy's or Stuart's attempts?
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thatusernameisalreadyused
In studying the split times of Billy Bland, Stuart Bland and Mark Hartell (
http://www.thebunyans.plus.com/mh/fe...fastestBG.html) there seem to be a few interesting variations, where Billy has moved significantly faster than the other two - suggesting maybe a somewhat different route?
Major variations:-
Red Pike - Steeple
If you look at Billys time for Yewbarrow to Red pike I think he was taking a breather ;) before he put a big effort in as there's not a great deal of variation possible between Red Pike - Steeple
Bill
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thatusernameisalreadyused
In studying the split times of Billy Bland, Stuart Bland and Mark Hartell (
http://www.thebunyans.plus.com/mh/fe...fastestBG.html) there seem to be a few interesting variations, where Billy has moved significantly faster than the other two - suggesting maybe a somewhat different route?
It will probably be down to individual strengths and weaknesses.
Quote:
Major variations:-
Steel Fell - Calf Crag
Can't think of anything here that would shave significant time off the obvious route along the path.
The major variations have already been discussed on this thread.
Quote:
Red Pike - Steeple
Short of noting to go to the left of a particular boulder rather than the right there is nothing much to consider here, Maybe Billy recovered from the climb up to Red Pike better.
Quote:
Kirkfell - Great Gable
There was something on here last year about the Ennerdale - Billy Bland was apparently at Beck Head pointing out some ramps to get up onto Kirkfell.
Quote:
Minor variations:-
Green Gable - Brandreth
You can either follow the path or keep to the Ennerdale side, not sure which is quicker.
Quote:
Hindscarth - Robinson
The only real option here is whether to follow the fence up Robinson from the col or go direct. I've no times to compare for this.
Quote:
Also, Mark has several instances where he's significantly slower than the other two (eg. his descent to Thelkeld). Obviously he may have had a problem or stopped for a break or whatever, but maybe there's an alternative that the Blands knew that Mark didn't!
I've heard mention of heading down one of the gills to the side of Halls Fell but don't know the route.
Quote:
I presume, as no one's mentioned (and I've not found) anything, that there is no proper writeup of Mark's, Billy's or Stuart's attempts?
I'm fairly sure that there was something in the Westmorland Gazette about Billy's run - perhaps quarter of a page - I remember reading it at the time.
Bob
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Me and a mate did leg 2 (c/w) on Friday with the clag down and plenty of snow on the ground. Were comfortably inside 23 hr schedule despite poor ground conditions. Coming off Dollywaggon was slow - you couldn;lt run down as it was so slippery.
Main discovery was the good line up Clough Head, which shaved 10 mins off the schedule. At the stile in the fence after the wet section there are two gullies running down up the fell (you can see them from the road). If you take the right one up, seemingly into the screes above, there is a grassy line all the way up. It's a little steeper than the left hand approach but its good ground, hardly any rocks and you pop out 200m from the summit. It's more direct and the steep section is very short lived and thus represents a saving worth making as it will not turn your legs into toast.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Yiannis always uses the gills to the West of Halls fell. If you're running well & the rock is slippy then down Doddick Fell & cutting across the field to the road is at least as quick as Halls fell
On the 60 at 60 outing we went almost straight up Clough Head from the stile, just angling right almost at the top between the scree. I thought this was better than heading left.
There used to be a write-up of Marks outing on the Macclesfield website
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Swiss Toni
Main discovery was the good line up Clough Head, which shaved 10 mins off the schedule. At the stile in the fence after the wet section there are two gullies running down up the fell (you can see them from the road). If you take the right one up, seemingly into the screes above, there is a grassy line all the way up. It's a little steeper than the left hand approach but its good ground, hardly any rocks and you pop out 200m from the summit. It's more direct and the steep section is very short lived and thus represents a saving worth making as it will not turn your legs into toast.
that's the one!
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Baggins
Last week coming off Skiddaw went to the left of hare crag rather than over it, horrendous, I was bashing through knee deep heather most of the time or following ditches, I take it the way to go is over hare crag that would mean joining the road skiddaw house near the south ridge.
I then went up Great galva between dead beck and the south ridge which was not much better, dropped off galva via the ground to the right of the fence, this was not too bad compared to where I'd been but looking back from Mungrisdale common the south ridge looked a better line.
So is it quicker to use the south ridge for both ascent and descent or is there a secret dry path hidden in the heather.
Bill
There is a path through that goes on the left side of hare crag, crosses a small bridge and then follows the beck line to calva - it is much better than over the heather although resembles a stream at times.
What you do is go 400m along the path from Skiddaw, and the moment it flattens out at a col dead recon a bearing over the fence to hare crag. I havent missed it yet, even in thick clag: but at night it is worth spreading out so that someone spots the trod. although all the routes seem to converge unless you are way off .
The south ridge is a misnomer, the ridge goes SW and it is much shorter heather than south which although good running 5 years ago is a nightmare now. Going SW is fast certainly half way down, and I think it may be worth sacrificing distance to come even further down that way.
About 150m W of the sheepfold near the caldew ( see aerial photos) there is a place to cross the river without getting wet feet clinging to a fence, but I missed it last time out - havent seen it in 3-4 years injured , but presume is still there
PS
If you read Yiannis' 60@60 he talks of being shown a fast descent from seat sandal on a more direct route. I asked him about it, but he was a bit more non commital than the report suggests. Is there a better way off? I once tried going SW lovely running down , crossing the far end of dunmail and up the ridge of steel fell, but It is certainly longer than the normal route?
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Re Seat Sandal descent:
On early attempts we used to go straight down to the lay-by next to the Achille Ratti hut (by the bus stop) and then go straight over the A591 and up a gully on Steel Fell immediately below the summit. Although this line is the shortest on the map and could be quicker than the usual way further to the north we found it too steep on the way down and I wouldn't recommend it, especially not in the dark.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Somwehere on this thread was a discussion about the way up SKiddaw for a c/w BGR, i.e. either up the main tourist track or up via Carl Side. The latter seems shorter and steeper with more road running and so has pluses and minuses.
This Saturday, a mate and I who are very similarly paced on the fells (1 place and a few secs apart last time we raced in the fells against each other) are going to set off from the Moot Hall together before splitting up - with me doing the 'normal' route and him going the Carl Side way. We'll resist the urge to race (!) mainly because we are both aspirant BGR-ers and are keen to genuinely know which is the quicker route.
We'll meet on the summit of Skiddaw and compare notes. I suspect if there is no more than a couple of mins in it, then the normal route is likely to take less out of you, but if the gap is significantly in my mate's favour (say, more than 10 mins), then it's certainly worth thinking about.
I'll report back afterwards and hope people find it useful.
ST
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Swiss Toni
We'll resist the urge to race (!) mainly because we are both aspirant BGR-ers and are keen to genuinely know which is the quicker route.
We'll meet on the summit of Skiddaw and compare notes. I suspect if there is no more than a couple of mins in it, then the normal route is likely to take less out of you, but if the gap is significantly in my mate's favour (say, more than 10 mins), then it's certainly worth thinking about.
I'll report back afterwards and hope people find it useful.
ST
To be fair I think you should race then you'll know you're both putting the same effort in ;)
Are you taking bets!
Bill
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
On my garmin i clocked the carl side route as over half a mile less than the other route so would be interested to see the results.
The carl side route is a lot more 'bitty', and i tackled it in daylight - still cant see how it doesnt take 3-5 mins off the other route.
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alwaysinjured
If you read Yiannis' 60@60 he talks of being shown a fast descent from seat sandal on a more direct route. I asked him about it, but he was a bit more non commital than the report suggests. Is there a better way off? I once tried going SW lovely running down , crossing the far end of dunmail and up the ridge of steel fell, but It is certainly longer than the normal route?
Yiannis was further to the South, closer to the lay-by. He was trying to avoid all the stones. But he then had to head North up to the stile & the normal parking/route up Steel Fell.
IMHO the best route off Seat Sandal is to head for the small pinnacle on the NE of the slope above the road & go down through the bracken (hoping that other BGR people have trampled the route through for you)
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Re: Bob Graham Route Choices
My thoughts on Skiddaw -> Calva
There are 2 paths which emerge coming down blake hill from the skiddaw fence, both begin life as twin tracks (quad bike?).
The first follows the top of the 'ridge', this becomes a distinctive thin black peaty ride, quite boggy and heads straight into the slight depression before hare crag where it is rather nasty and you can get up to your knee in muck. It rides up slightly to the left of hare crag to a distinctive rocky outcrop, which we call 'rock corner' - its especially distinctive in the dark, compared to the normal bleak espanses of heather. Here the path goes slightly left and is pretty easy to follow to a small bridge NOT marked on the OS 25k map where you also cross the cumbria way n.b. this is NOT the FB on the maps further south!.
The path to Calva is then quite distinct, apart from a bit near the bottom where you always seem to need to make a correction over lumpy heather further to the left looking out for the reflective posts (on all my 3 night traversals this happened).
This route when plotted on a GPS is very direct, and I cant really see it being bettered.
However, in the night when you go over the fence its probably all a bit chaotic, and on the first 2 night traversals (one recce, one BG attempt) we hit the second path, which seems very like the first but is slightly further north, this remains a quad track till it sweeps left towards candleseaves and a faint path goes ahead and slightly right. Now this path goes to rock corner, and if you get it right its faster than the main rather boggy path. Unfortunatly its quite hard to follow and if you stray (as our first recce) it can lead to all sorts of problems, such as hidden stream beds and very high heather.
This second path dumps you at rock corner too.
In good vis, on my 3rd run, I hit the main path easy (i could see the contour of blake hill and just followed the summit ridge to the main path).
Calva -> Blencathra
I would reccomend taking a bearing from the south of the summit ridge straight for foule crag and drift slighly right, this seems to lead to grassy interludes in the heather which are easy to run - and the river seems ok.
There is marsh on the other side, so i cant see how you are going to keep your feet dry. Ive tried crossing in 4 locations, one via a rock near the fence which you can get onto and leap across. Other times ive brought carrier bags and shoved them on my feet before walking straight through (worked quite well) - trouble is every time my feet were soaked after the marshy start to the mungrisdale climb - so I would just blast straight through and s*d it.