Scrambling and fell running

I was just writing a post for my blog about scrambling on fell runs and in fell races, and got a bit stuck thinking of fell races that involve scrambling in them. I came up with

- Peris Horseshoe: the bit over Y Lliwedd
- Welsh 1000m Peaks: as of last year, the Gribin ridge onto Glyder Fawr
- Langdale Horseshoe: if you pick the Bad Step down from Crinkle Crags anyway, but it is avoidable...

Both grade 1 and arguably at the bottom end of the grade. Are there any other races that involve sections of scrambling? And what are people's opinions, do scrambling and fell running mix?

I can definitely see in a race context encouraging people to go as fast as they can over graded scrambles could lead to disaster, though in the same vein encouraging people to go as fast as they can in the hills at all has its dangers.

I believe fell running and scrambling mix fine.
if the question is do fell racing and scrambling mix I would say yes to that as well
one of my fave runs in snowdonia is to run Moel Siabod from the rear approach and the up the grade 1 scramble then down the fell race route it is far more interesting and varied.
I think races that incorporated some hands on rock
would be really good fun.

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Originally Posted by N-dubya

I believe fell running and scrambling mix fine.
if the question is do fell racing and scrambling mix I would say yes to that as well
one of my fave runs in snowdonia is to run Moel Siabod from the rear approach and the up the grade 1 scramble then down the fell race route it is far more interesting and varied.
I think races that incorporated some hands on rock
would be really good fun.

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I have to agree I like a bit of scrambling in a race, for me part of the fun in a fell race is pitting yourself against the “hill” or terrain, along with fellow runners. To remove the trickier bits of the terrain from the race IE the scramble, is dumbing the race down IMO.

ATB

Tahr

Top of Causey Pike on Buttermere Sailbeck. It's not exactly loads of scrambling but it can feel quite exposed in the wind and rain!

Not a great fan of scrambling, im more a poaching or frying man myself.

I like a bit of hands-on rock (preferably in ascent though!). Bit of very easy scrambling up Crag Hill in Coledale yesterday.
Being able to deal with easy scrambles is all part of the skill needed for fell-running I reckon.

The scrambling on Crag hill yesterday was pretty straight forward but the volume of people on it all at the same time mad it a bit tricky at times especially trying to overtake. I was about to overtake a person who then ended up blocking my way. to avoid her I had to jump to the right and in doing so stood on a chaps hand (really sorry), I dont think he was too happy despite my apologies!!

Plus the risk of catching a face full of dislodged scree! I moved over to the right of the line most people were taking to try and avoid this possibility....

Going up the Prison Band from Wetherlam to Swirl Howe on the Coniston race? As a scramble it's pretty easy but last year I was sending people out the back door all the way up it.

Gable from Beck Head on Wasdale
first bit of Tryfan Downhill
last bit of ascent on Ras Yr Aran

Holme Moss, ascending the rocks to join the Pennine way - I can remember thinking as I was doing it that I could easily have a nasty fall.

I tend to pick the 'hands on rock lines' up to Scafell on Borrowdale Race and up Swiril Edge on Cafod Grisedale HS. I like it and feel its sometimes quicker than being in the loose stuff on the paths.

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Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy

I tend to pick the 'hands on rock lines' up to Scafell on Borrowdale Race and up Swiril Edge on Cafod Grisedale HS. I like it and feel its sometimes quicker than being in the loose stuff on the paths.

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Article in the next trail running magazine on record breaking run of the snowdon horseshoe and run scrambles.. including input from the self promoting runsnowdinia...

I love a bit of scrambling thrown in with my running. I quite often plan routes in the Lakes to take in some hands-on-rock stuff - I've heard good things about Pinnacle Ridge (side of St Sunday), so want to check that out sometime soon. Not sure it's a great idea in races, though, unless the scramble is pretty easy, short, and/or a fair way into the course so there's not loads of runners going up it at the same time - surely it'd be asking for trouble sending the whole field up something like Sharp Edge, for instance??

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Originally Posted by Trimm Trab

unless the scramble is pretty easy, short, and/or a fair way into the course so there's not loads of runners going up it at the same time - surely it'd be asking for trouble sending the whole field up something like Sharp Edge, for instance??

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Thats what I thought when I first read the title!

To be honest I haven't been in a race that includes "scrambling" wouldn't fancy racing with others up arrowhead ridge on Gable or Slab and Notch on Pillar Rock!

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Originally Posted by IainR

Article in the next trail running magazine on record breaking run of the snowdon horseshoe and run scrambles.. including input from the self promoting runsnowdinia...

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Looks like you got there before me Iain! At least it will reach a wider audience than my blog...

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Originally Posted by Trimm Trab

I love a bit of scrambling thrown in with my running. I quite often plan routes in the Lakes to take in some hands-on-rock stuff - I've heard good things about Pinnacle Ridge (side of St Sunday), so want to check that out sometime soon. Not sure it's a great idea in races, though, unless the scramble is pretty easy, short, and/or a fair way into the course so there's not loads of runners going up it at the same time - surely it'd be asking for trouble sending the whole field up something like Sharp Edge, for instance??

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Pinnacle Ridge is brilliant. There's one tricky step that's probably about a Diff in rock-climbing terms but the rest isn't technically that difficult, just super exposed and great fun! Wouldn't fancy it in fell running shoes mind...

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Are there any other races that involve sections of scrambling?

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Arrochar Alps - the initial descent from Beinn Narnain. Similar to the direct route off the Crinkles referred to above, only you're likely to be rather more tired by this point in the race...
Glen Rosa Horsehoe - quite a few bits where you get hands-on-rock though the race goes out of its way, via a spectacular descent (on grass), to avoid the "Bad Step" on the A'Chir ridge.

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Originally Posted by Sam Harrison

And what are people's opinions, do scrambling and fell running mix?

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Dunno about when racing - but the reason I went for my first ever fell run was in order to go for a scramble, because we were in the Lakes, and clearly no scrambling was going to be done with a baby strapped to my back.

I went up Halls Fell Ridge, down via Sharp Edge, and I was suddenly hooked on the notion that I could get places in the hills quickly.

Then I discovered downhill running, and that you didn't have to stick to the path (I had never heard of Open Access....) and I was hooked.

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

Top of Causey Pike on Buttermere Sailbeck. It's not exactly loads of scrambling but it can feel quite exposed in the wind and rain!

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I was going to mention that.

does`nt it say something about scrambling type terrain in the FRA rules regarding safety requirments for fell races under 4 course design ?

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Originally Posted by rocksteady

does`nt it say something about scrambling type terrain in the FRA rules regarding safety requirments for fell races under 4 course design ?

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It does but it's a bit ambiguous and doesn't really mention scrambling. It says courses "must not be unnecessarily dangerous" and mentions that hazards such as "rock climbs or steep unstable slopes", or "comparable foreseeable dangers" must not be compulsory route choices. I think that's a good approach actually as it puts the onus on the race organiser to decide whether or not a particular route classes as unnecessarily dangerous or not, and at the end of the day they're going to know the course the best out of anyone so they're most informed to make the decision.

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Originally Posted by rocksteady

does`nt it say something about scrambling type terrain in the FRA rules regarding safety requirments for fell races under 4 course design ?

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Yeah.. I think technically the Peris may break those conditions as the east ridge of Wyddfa that most lead runners ascend to but off the watkins is classed as a grade 1 scramble.. and that's pretty dodgy terrain.. which has claimed lives in the past if you get the line slightly wrong, plus its incredibly loose.. I like it.. but when it was a champs race back in '06.. it wasn't so much fun with many of us on it at the same time..

Top bit of Moel Hebog is quite sporting.

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Originally Posted by DazTheSlug

Gable from Beck Head on Wasdale
first bit of Tryfan Downhill
last bit of ascent on Ras Yr Aran

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Definitley.

Did a walking recce of Wasdale yesterday. Said to my walking mate "I'm gonna run all the way up Gable", 10 seconds later I was on hands and knees scrambling

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Originally Posted by IainR

Article in the next trail running magazine on record breaking run of the snowdon horseshoe and run scrambles.. including input from the self promoting runsnowdinia...

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Self-promoting?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4518

What can you tell me about Benn Eighe then Iain?

http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showt...amp-Benn-Eighe

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Originally Posted by (notsomuchofa)Fellrunner

Self-promoting?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4518

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Some pretty sensible comments about runners personal responsibility and self reliance in amongst that lot, should be compulsory reading.

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Originally Posted by Mark G

Some pretty sensible comments about runners personal responsibility and self reliance in amongst that lot, should be compulsory reading.

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Thanks, unfortunately it contained too much self promoting for some on here.. not sure exactly how that was..

I thought it was pretty clear that yes we guide but you don't need a guide..

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Originally Posted by IainR

Thanks, unfortunately it contained too much self promoting for some on here.. not sure exactly how that was..

I thought it was pretty clear that yes we guide but you don't need a guide..

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It's a brilliant article Iain, covers pretty much everything you need to know about fell running. Personally didn't think it wasn't self-promoting at all, quite the opposite as you're encouraging people to get out there and try it. Particularly liked the comment saying fellrunning is "only extreme for the incompetent" :D

Incidentally, I remember reading an article at the end of last year written by you (or possibly just Sarah?) about fell running in winter. I thought it was for UKC but couldn't find it online so thought maybe it was for the BMC's Summit magazine? Either way, that was a great article and definitely motivated me to start doing some proper winter fell runs.

Just started to read this thread and noticed it is predominantly lakes based. Been from "t" penines does Laddow rocks on the Home Moss Fell race count as scrambling ? Perhaps some body with more experience could inform me.:confused:
Certainly felt like scrambling to me, although on the easier grade .

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Originally Posted by Mike T

Holme Moss, ascending the rocks to join the Pennine way - I can remember thinking as I was doing it that I could easily have a nasty fall.

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Originally Posted by beaker

Just started to read this thread and noticed it is predominantly lakes based. Been from "t" penines does Laddow rocks on the Home Moss Fell race count as scrambling ? Perhaps some body with more experience could inform me.:confused:
Certainly felt like scrambling to me, although on the easier grade .

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Mike T reckons so, me too beaker, only done it once but i scrambled:wink:

I seem to remember a tricky descent from Kirkfell in the Ennerdale race

There are even 4 mini scrambles from ODG to the top of Blisco in the Blisco Dash - best avoided on the descent if possible, by going around to the right, on the 3 Shires/Langdale path for a bit, then rejoining the uphill route.

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Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan

Top of Causey Pike on Buttermere Sailbeck. It's not exactly loads of scrambling but it can feel quite exposed in the wind and rain!

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Same as teenager with altitude.
Down from cat bells is also a scramble, avoidable to right on steep grass.