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Thread: Border Collie Pup

  1. #21
    Moderator noel's Avatar
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    Re: Borber Collie Pup

    I think partly the reason that people buy pedigree dogs is that they know what they're getting. Though I'm not a fan of pedigrees myself.

    We got a rescue mongrel dog about 2 years ago who was both very stubborn (despite being well trained) and liked chasing sheep. This was the worst possible combination, and was probably related to the mix of breeds he had in him. We had to rehouse him as we're surrounded by sheep farmers.

    That was a mistake we don't want to make again, so we have since decided that if we do get another dog, it will probably be something similar to the one we already have (which we got from the excellent Millstream Animal Shelter in Droylsden, Manchester) - a collie lab cross.

    I suspect there are many people like us who would like a dog from a puppy so they can train it how they like, and can be sure it's not been mentally scarred from previous stupid abusive owners. If we were to get another dog, we would certainly look round the local rescue places for a young (<1 year) lab-collie cross. But failing that, there is a breeder near us - so we would also consider this. I think this is a reasonable stance, and I don't think I should feel guilty about it.

    Longdogs, I'm stuggling to see your endgame here. Many people want to own dogs - so people breed them. I can't see a situation developing where this stops. I agree that people should always consider a rescue dog first, but a lot of people (like me) have specific requirements.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Longdogs's Avatar
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    Re: Borber Collie Pup

    Noel, the idea that you know what you're getting is simply a myth. Do you propose typing the genome of your prospective puppy, and predicting every single event in its life? No? Well then you don't know what you're going to get.

    Re-homing centres are full to bursting with dogs from people who thought they knew what they were getting, and they can 'train it how they like'. Those with 'mental scarring' (which clinically doesn't exist) or any behaviour issues are in the minority, or transient and caused by kennelling. If you aren't savvy enough to train any ordinary dog, you certainly won't have the skills to do an adequate job with a puppy. A dog doesn't know whether its a 'rescue' dog or not, it just knows its a dog and behaves like a dog- simple.

    As i said earlier, i've never heard of any special requirements which can't be met by rehoming a dog. If you hanker after a particular breed (though why someone wants a clone of everyone else's dog i'm not sure) there is a book of rehoming societies for every breed.

    As for my endgame? Well, i'm splitting my sides at that... Seriously, i don't have one.. i just do what i can for dog welfare, while trying not to get so down about it that i become one of the statistics of the veterinary profession- 7 times the national suicide rate (11 times for female vets in their 20s and 30s).

  3. #23
    Moderator noel's Avatar
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    Re: Borber Collie Pup

    Quote Originally Posted by Longdogs View Post
    Noel, the idea that you know what you're getting is simply a myth. Do you propose typing the genome of your prospective puppy, and predicting every single event in its life? No? Well then you don't know what you're going to get.
    But generally breeds do have characteristics in terms of behaviour and temperement. You wouldn't deny that. Dogs are not all the same. Spaniels are likely to behave more like spaniels than greyhounds are. Some people, like you for example, seem to prefer one over the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longdogs View Post
    Those with 'mental scarring' (which clinically doesn't exist) or any behaviour issues are in the minority, or transient and caused by kennelling.
    I'm interested by this comment. This has been discussed a bit on this thread already. I think the rescue centres themselves give this impression by the detailed descriptions that you get with most dogs, such as "not good with children", or "had bad experiences with children", "doesn't like other dogs", "scared of traffic" "kills cats" - the list is endless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longdogs View Post
    As for my endgame? Well, i'm splitting my sides at that... Seriously, i don't have one..
    Sorry, maybe "endgame" was a poor choice of words. I just find it hard to see how my actions would lead to fewer people needlessly killing dogs (which is something we both want).

    Quote Originally Posted by Longdogs View Post
    I just do what i can for dog welfare, while trying not to get so down about it that i become one of the statistics of the veterinary profession- 7 times the national suicide rate (11 times for female vets in their 20s and 30s).
    Yes, that's a scary statistic. I hope your running helps.

  4. #24
    Senior Member simgreen78's Avatar
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    Re: Borber Collie Pup

    Quote Originally Posted by Longdogs View Post
    Those with 'mental scarring' (which clinically doesn't exist) or any behaviour issues are in the minority, or transient and caused by kennelling.
    How can that be?! I know of lots of dogs that I would consider to have mental scarring. Even my own dog, who is terrified of men after being kicked around by his previous male owner but very fond of the ladies (good lad). Runs and hides if you get a bin liner out of the cupboard as he was bagged up and dumped. How is it 'clinically' non-existent?
    Be Humble. Sit Down.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Longdogs's Avatar
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    Re: Borber Collie Pup

    Ok... 3 questions, 3 answers.

    1. How do your actions lead to less senseless dog killing?- by rehoming one instead of buying one that's been manufactured for profit. every time a puppy is bought or sold, a breeder is encouraged to repeat the exercise. If there was no market, they would stop.

    2. Yes different dogs have different characteristics. That's why you get them assessed by professionals before re-homing them... oh no, my mistake, nobody does that do they.. they often give less thought to the 10 + years of commitment than they do to buying a toaster.

    3. 'Mental scarring'. The only non-human animals with any evidence for abstract thinking is the higher primates, re: tool-making in a very minor way. There is zero evidence of abstract thought in dogs.

    What happens in dogs is Input A + Input B = Output C (behaviour). Lets take the above example- a dog afraid of a bin liner. Input A= presence of bin liner. Input B= pain/fear. Output C = Hide, act scared. That is how the dog learns Output C. There is no evidence to suggest it has any memory of what happened in the past, but now, Input A leads to Output C. If we change Input B to something pleasant for the dog, lets say a biscuit, and repeat enough times, we get output D- relaxed, happy behaviour in response to bin liner. This is obviously a simple example, but you get the drift.

    What happens in human minds is very different. The reason why rescue homes say things like 'no kids', 'scared of traffic' etc is threefold. One- fear of litigation. Two- not all of them are very knowledgable, however well-meaning. Three- if they had to convince every prospective owner of the above before rehoming a dog, they'd never be able to do anything. It's simpler and quicker to just say what they say and then the dog has a home and the next one takes its place. And so the public never learns and the cycle goes on.. but what else can you do? A mass cull of all surplus dogs and compulsory exams for dog owners (it happens in Switzerland...).

  6. #26
    Senior Member simgreen78's Avatar
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    Re: Borber Collie Pup

    Quote Originally Posted by Longdogs View Post
    As for my endgame? Well, i'm splitting my sides at that... Seriously, i don't have one.. i just do what i can for dog welfare, while trying not to get so down about it that i become one of the statistics of the veterinary profession- 7 times the national suicide rate (11 times for female vets in their 20s and 30s).
    Scary. Although the actual figure is four times the national rate. Still scary though. Although I would point out that apparently the main three reasons cited are long hours, fear of customer complaints and fear of making professional mistakes, which is a different kind of thing to what I think you are alluding to here.
    Be Humble. Sit Down.

  7. #27
    Senior Member simgreen78's Avatar
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    Re: Borber Collie Pup

    Actually I'd favour the compulsory exam thing, I posted on here about that several months ago...
    Be Humble. Sit Down.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Longdogs's Avatar
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    Re: Borber Collie Pup

    Only four times now eh! It was 7 last time i looked.. brilliant, we're all fine then How did they get these citings? From beyond the grave? Seriously, what i've read is (a) personality type, (b) conditions as you mentioned above, and (c) easy access to means. All these apply to medics and dentists too, also high rates. I think we outperform them on suicide though because of constantly having to make decisions on 'quality of life' of sentient beings and the apparent disposability of our patients. But that's purely a personal viewpoint.

  9. #29
    Senior Member simgreen78's Avatar
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    Re: Borber Collie Pup

    Quote Originally Posted by Longdogs View Post
    Only four times now eh! It was 7 last time i looked.. brilliant, we're all fine then How did they get these citings? From beyond the grave? Seriously, what i've read is (a) personality type, (b) conditions as you mentioned above, and (c) easy access to means. All these apply to medics and dentists too, also high rates. I think we outperform them on suicide though because of constantly having to make decisions on 'quality of life' of sentient beings and the apparent disposability of our patients. But that's purely a personal viewpoint.
    Yes, it seems that that is the view of the still living, it was certainly what I would have thought. I'm assuming they put the 'reasons' stats together from notes that have been left? Discussions with friends and relatives? Default occupational criteria when all other reasoning fails?

    Vets certainly outperform dentists and medics. Although I think from memory that farmers have the worst ratio. Flippancy aside, its a bloody awful statistic.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Longdogs's Avatar
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    Re: Borber Collie Pup

    Quote Originally Posted by simgreen78 View Post
    Vets certainly outperform dentists and medics.
    One should always try to be on the winning team

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