The figure for cyclists as a whole is over 40%.Originally Posted by Stagger
By the way, is this a performance enhancing drug?
I thought this was a permissible, but notifiable drug.
If it was banned, there'd be a lot of people racing along with us who'd be stuffed.
Richard Taylor
"William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
Sid Waddell
The TUE inhalers "bring competitors up to a level playing field " argument is seductive but interestingly was not applied to eg haematocrit levels where humans can also have a natural range (say 0.37 to 0.52).Good point John. In the same way as we need a non-paralympics, perhaps we need a tour de France of people without respiratory problems. Imagine how fast they'd be.
Notoriously cyclists took EPO to "level the playing field" but this was declared to be illegal by that paragon of virtue the ICU.
So asthma problem - TUE; natural low haematocrit level - tough!
Why?
As it happens I have a low haematocrit level (not many people know that - and I suspect even fewer care!) and so I am at a disadvantage in fell races.
So life is not only unfair but unfairly unfair.
Last edited by Graham Breeze; 17-12-2017 at 01:50 PM.
"...as dry as the Atacama desert".
Graham, you are with the greatest of respect quite old but in fairness have a degree of natural talent, plus don’t mind suffering. I am quite fat, have very little natural talent and am a lazy b*gger. Life is a bitch, then you die . . .
Perhaps we need to adjust our mindset slightly and learn to live with the logic that pro-cyclists are telling themselves: Everyone is cheating so I need to just to be able to compete.
Once you get used to that you can start idolising these athletes again as you had previously. And whereas before it was "Froome/Wiggins is the greatest cyclist I've ever seen, and he's riding against a field of really talented cyclists."
Now it's "Froome/Wiggins is the greatest cyclist (who's cheating in a way that most of the time isn't detectable), and he's riding against a field of really talented cheats."
What do you think? Does it lose a bit of the mystique? Was it better when we pretended cycling had suddenly become clean overnight?
First you have to establish they are cheating Noel. It is not cheating to use Salbutomal. It is that his piss has indicated a higher level.
I don't personally understand how the intake of a substance can be regulated by an inhaler that is puffed on as required.
But below perhaps gives some indication as to the futility of anyone using salbutamol as a PED.
You can find plenty of investigations in to salbutomal.
"Inhaled salbutamol, even in a high dose, did not have a significant effect on endurance performance in non-asthmatic athletes"
From research publiched in the British Medical Journal.
Cycling Weekly similarly referring to research almost 2 years ago.
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/la...al-peds-205512
'Chris Froome's drug reading makes his Vuelta a Espana win more remarkable'
from the Telegraph last week by Dr Brian Lipworth
http://medicine.dundee.ac.uk/staff-m...ian-j-lipworth
who seems to know what he is on about.
The article is subscriber only so I've chopped it down a little - redacted seems to be the terminology of the moment
"My first reaction on hearing of Chris Froome’s “failed” salbutamol test was one of surprise – that he won the Vuelta a Espana at all given those levels of salbutamol. In my view, that makes his achievement more remarkable rather than suspicious.
Having 2,000ng/ml of salbutamol in one’s urine does not suggest doping to me. In fact, I would happily testify in court to salbutamol having no performance-enhancing benefits whatsoever – aside from the known benefits in dilating the airways in someone with asthma.
Higher doses of salbutamol in the long term can cause muscle weakness, impair cardiac function by increasing heart response and lower blood potassium – all of which would impair rather than improve performance.
To me, Froome’s reading suggests that he, or rather his doctor, was doing a poor job of controlling his asthma. Salbutamol is a short-acting beta agonist. It provides fast-acting relief, but that is all.
Even the reading on its own is useless unless you have context. You would need to know when Froome took the drug, how much he took, how soon he took it before the urine was taken and how dehydrated he was. Taking a random spot urine sample for salbutamol is meaningless as there are numerous factors which could affect this: the type of inhaler can vary levels by at least 50 per cent, and also the absorptive surface area of the lungs in an elite athlete."
Richard Taylor
"William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
Sid Waddell
Witton you're not being honest here. You've deliberately picked articles that suit your agenda. Let's not forget that you told us years ago that Armstrong was a clean and a 'phenomenal athlete' even when the evidence was pointing to him cheating. Then you and 'Always Injured' got into a tiff with me over comments made regarding Mo Farah and others. 'Always Injured' even resorted to insults calling me a 't***.' for speaking the truth.
Time has shown who's side the facts lie with and it isn't you and 'Always Injured.' You tell us you want to wait for evidence of wrong doing in Froome's case then put together a series of articles and thoughts on why Froome is innocent.
Witton you'd be made very welcome by Brailsford at Team Sky.
Let's look at the facts surrounding Froome taking into consideration his own comments after one of the Vuelta Espana stages and also when he spoke to the press last week after his positive test was revealed.
The maximum permitted dose of Salbutamol is 1600micrograms in 24 hours. The UCI are in agreement here with the manufacturers (Ventolin) recommendations, but not for their inhaler. We'll get back to that.
The maximum amount of Salbutamol (Ventolin) allowed in the urine is 1000units. Basically if you have to take the maximum dose of Ventolin I.e. 1600mcgs, your urine levels should be well within 1000units.
Here's the thing. Each puff of a Ventolin inhaler dispenses 100mcg. To exceed the 1600mcg threshold Froome would have to have had in excess of 16 puffs. In the manufacturers guidelines they recommend no more than 2 puffs. But that doesn't tell the whole story because Froome had 2000units in his urine which would have meant him having in excess of 32 puffs of his inhaler!
Froome lost time to Nibali one day. He said he was feeling well when asked by journalists after that stage. The next day he took time out of Nibali. That was the day he returned the positive result. Froome told us last week when his positive test came through that he'd been feeling unwell so had a few extra puffs on his inhaler.
This is the crux for me. A few extra puffs is 300mcg. So where did all the extra drug come from? A 2000units in his urine equates to a consumption of over 3200mcgs of Ventolin.
He's given himself and the game up just on his own comments. The facts don't correspond to his remarks last week. Salbutamol is a potent performance enhancing drug when used in isolation or in conjunction with corticosteroids. Sports doctors know this and so do athletes which is why they take it.
Last edited by CL; 18-12-2017 at 09:43 PM.
Just found an article in The Guardian. Not only is he taking Ventolin but he's also allowed to take corticosteroids:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...cility-cycling
Excellent! Many thanks for the link.
He is a sensible commentator and I have several of his books.
"...as dry as the Atacama desert".
Here's the thing. Each puff of a Ventolin inhaler dispenses 100mcg. To exceed the 1600mcg threshold Froome would have to have had in excess of 16 puffs. In the manufacturers guidelines they recommend no more than 2 puffs. But that doesn't tell the whole story because Froome had 2000units in his urine which would have meant him having in excess of 32 puffs of his inhaler!
Good points CL. A someone who has been diagnosed with Asthma, 32 puffs in unbelievable. My doctor told me to have a max of 10 puffs during an attack and if there is no change to call an ambulance. No way is 32 puffs reasonable it would have to come via another source.
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