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Thread: UKA fell running qualification

  1. #21
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: UKA fell running qualifica

    Quote Originally Posted by IainR View Post
    But it comes down to an unclear remit... the remit is so unclear and unspecific I think you could easily say its a qualification to lead people to run on the fells.. LiFR.. LEADERSHIP...

    Badly worded.. poorly defined...
    I agree Iain - to a point - yes it is poorly defined.

    The new structure is ill thought out and I would prefer to go back to the old structure for coaches of Level 1 asst, Level 2 core + event, etc.

    The Leader issue arose from road running. There is an acceptance that most road running clubs do not have any coaching structure. They meet at a pub, park etc and go for a run as a group.
    The award seeks to address that by at least raising awareness of some of the issues that these training run organisers need to consider and perhaps it them makes them also think about joining the coaching schemes.

    I would say that this is also relevant to the fell clubs. If a club arranges a formal run then unfortunately in today's environment they have to consider "what if", and these courses can make people think about what they are doing.

    I don't see it as an FRA issue.

    If you feel that there is something wrong, then write to UKA who set all this up. That's what I did when they brought out the UKCC courses - and leave the FRA alone as they can only go by what the ultimate governing body recognises.

  2. #22
    Senior Member wycoller's Avatar
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    Re: UKA fell running qualifica

    The coach licences are quite clear (these are on credit card sized photo cards these days). I'm a level 2 endurance coach and my licence says"this person has had the necessary police records check and is insured to coach endurance plus...."

    I also hold a summer ML qualification but given that is nearly 30 years old, and I haven't kept a log book, could I take groups in the hills?

    As Richard pointed out the UKA licences (not EA) do include professional coaching.

  3. #23
    Master IainR's Avatar
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    Re: UKA fell running qualifica

    Quote Originally Posted by wycoller View Post
    T
    I also hold a summer ML qualification but given that is nearly 30 years old, and I haven't kept a log book, could I take groups in the hills?
    .
    If you have a current first aid course.. then yes..

    But you'd have been expected to stay current.. but mainly just going out in the hills a lot is part of that, then attending a few semina's and things..

    The basics haven't changed, but things like river crossings have changed a lot.. and we now use compasses.. given up on the stars...

  4. #24
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    Re: UKA fell running qualifica

    Quote Originally Posted by IainR View Post
    If you have a current first aid course.. then yes..

    But you'd have been expected to stay current.. but mainly just going out in the hills a lot is part of that, then attending a few semina's and things..

    The basics haven't changed, but things like river crossings have changed a lot.. and we now use compasses.. given up on the stars...
    Staying current - there is now a CPD element linked to the revamp of the MLTA website, like you say keeping in practise the skills learnt and perfected.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Tubber's Avatar
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    Re: UKA fell running qualifica

    Mountain Leadership is not a simple qualification in that you need to prove, continually, that you are fit to continue taking groups out. It's not like passing your driving test. Nor is the MLTB necessarily the only suitable provider of qualifications.

  6. #26
    Master IainR's Avatar
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    Re: UKA fell running qualifica

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleanor View Post
    Exactly WP! Some people will always 'talk up' their qualifications for their own purposes.

    To some people, (eg. me) the remit of the LIFR and FMR Level 2 courses is very clear. These are not qualifications for mountain guiding and have nothing to do with navigation, but are all to do with group management skills and coaching skills. The trainers on the courses were quite clear about this, not least that we were training for these on athletic tracks with athletics equipment. I can see Ian has a problem with the word 'Leadership' in the LIFR. This is a short course, yes, and a basic level. But I think it is 'leadership' because it's about leading a group through a structured training session based on running (as opposed to basketball, javelin, football, etc). Leadership in Running Fitness is a clear title - leading a group to get fitter for running.
    s.
    Where on the web does it say that? I know what the course is, Sarah did one,

    You're a mother wanting a guide to take a kid out, you see the person holds a "leadership" qualification..

    The use of the term 'Leader' is a huge problem but just demonstrates why it should have had MLT involvement at some level, because the word Leader would have been advised again.

    A Mountain Leader is qualified to lead groups in the mountains..
    A Walking Group Leader is qualified to lead groups walking in low level areas.
    A Leader in Fell Running... ? Oh they can coach.. they haven't actually been assessed on nav, weather, group management..

    I agree the course is to provide fitness training.. but the remit is not clear. You say it is, but google ML remit.. google LiFR remit...

    Do you not see the confusion? and as we're now seeing commercial operators saying their leaders are either ML qualified OR UKA accredited.. I think concerns are valid..

    The growth in fell running scares me, 2 areas. 1) winter running 2) guiding. I think we'll see high profile incidents before it calms down.

    But I know one non qualified 'guide'.. offering guided runs on alpine trails in the French Alps.. I'm experienced in the UK, but high altitude trail running in the alps? I've done a fair bit but wouldn't feel happy guiding 5-10 runners. Risks from exposure to weather, altitude sickess (can hit extremely low), electrical storms are just so different to the UK situation.

    The use of other areas, Med islands, lower level 'hillier' areas in say Portugal, Spain, for example Mallorca etc. I think is fine.

    Thing is, as well know accidents happen, runners can suddenly be taken ill, so even the best qualified, sufficiently experienced and competent guide could be involved in a serious incident, but if you are operating outside of a remit, or have found to not taken sufficient courses, the minutest of failings in that incident could lead to a huge pile of shit coming down on that guide.

  7. #27
    Master IainR's Avatar
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    Re: UKA fell running qualifica

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubber View Post
    Mountain Leadership is not a simple qualification in that you need to prove, continually, that you are fit to continue taking groups out. It's not like passing your driving test. Nor is the MLTB necessarily the only suitable provider of qualifications.
    Well there's military.. but outside of that? Scouts? That system has been severly questioned and is being or has been over hauled due to deaths..

    Outside of that... the MLTB's are the main providers.. in mountain biking its less centralised..

    No you don't have to 'prove' anything..

    You have to 'prove' currentness of first aid knowledge. Not mountain knowledge. You are assumed to have stayed current. There is no reason why a guide who passed his ML in 1965, and is a current first aider can't work as an ML..

    Anyway you do not need qualifications at all.. if people want to guide based on experience that's perfectly OK in the UK. Your insurance will need to know and will be more expensive and probably more specific, but the main worry is stating accredited courses as being relevant to leading runs out in the hills..

  8. #28
    Master IainR's Avatar
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    Re: UKA fell running qualifica

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post

    I don't see it as an FRA issue.

    If you feel that there is something wrong, then write to UKA who set all this up. That's what I did when they brought out the UKCC courses - and leave the FRA alone as they can only go by what the ultimate governing body recognises.
    I disagree there. Graham's defence of Graeme as FRA Coaching coordinator and creator of the course was strong.. its clearly an FRA associated course..
    Last edited by IainR; 03-04-2012 at 06:20 PM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Tubber's Avatar
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    Re: UKA fell running qualifica

    Quote Originally Posted by IainR View Post
    Well there's military.. but outside of that? Scouts? That system has been severly questioned and is being or has been over hauled due to deaths..

    Outside of that... the MLTB's are the main providers.. in mountain biking its less centralised..

    No you don't have to 'prove' anything..

    You have to 'prove' currentness of first aid knowledge. Not mountain knowledge. You are assumed to have stayed current. There is no reason why a guide who passed his ML in 1965, and is a current first aider can't work as an ML..

    Anyway you do not need qualifications at all.. if people want to guide based on experience that's perfectly OK in the UK. Your insurance will need to know and will be more expensive and probably more specific, but the main worry is stating accredited courses as being relevant to leading runs out in the hills..
    You proove it by keeping a log book!
    I had a similar absolute idea about ML assessments until being enlightened by a Plas Y Brenin course in off site management.
    Last edited by Tubber; 03-04-2012 at 07:00 PM.

  10. #30
    Master IainR's Avatar
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    Re: UKA fell running qualifica

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrump View Post
    Usual agenda surfaces again.
    I was getting worried about you Grumps.. 3 pages and no useless banane comment adding nothing to the debate from mr/mrs anonymous.. Your courage in your posting ability is obvious.. hence why you hide like this...

    Its good that a spiteful comment is used.. you have a potentially serious issue which should be clarified.. or you can make shitty comments anonymously.. one brave person..
    Last edited by IainR; 03-04-2012 at 07:05 PM.

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