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Thread: Fellrunning article

  1. #11
    Master IainR's Avatar
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    Re: Fellrunning article

    Quote Originally Posted by jopari View Post
    from UKHillwalking.com:
    http://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/page.php?id=4518Personally I was unaware there were guides like this (a sort of cross between a personal trainer and a climbing guide)
    Graham
    In this sense Mountain running is running in the mountains.. its for UKhillwalking.. for hill walkers..

    Yeah you can differentiate fell running and mountain running but for the target audience there, they don't care about that difference.. I wasn't calling you numpty by the way, just I knew you'd get the 'we own the sport' lot coming on being semantic and just knocking away.. which I expected and enjoy.. :-)

    I actually wanted to put a link earlier.. its been there a good week..

    Re the guiding.. There are a few guides around. Steve Fallon up in Scotland does some I think, us in North Wales, then one in North Yorkshire (Jellylegs?), he posts on here, then people like IanDP will do some i think, then there are others. But a guide who actually claims part qualification.. yet lists experience, backed out of one race due to adverse weather conditions.. yet they are wanting clients to pay them to guide them through such weather.. its why experience may be enough, but it is fraught with dangers and you have to think about how the target audience can judge that experience..

    Sadly it will take deaths in fell running and such like until we see the sport calm down a bit.. People can call it alarmist but the outdoor sports went through huge upheavels following Lime Bay and other disasters..

    Also be careful with some of the 'run with x' weekends.. I won't name them, but I know of one weekend when the elite runner wasn't actually there.. so book through the person the directly..

    If someone wants guiding, basically think what they want, look at the guides profile and see what they can offer. We mainly do intro and intermediate weekends for groups, but do some personal one on one guiding, which is normally 3-4 hr runs. But sometimes its just 1 hr a day, 5 days a week. for someone's holiday. A guy on holiday with the family, limited time and wants a blast on good routes.. others want run scrambles, other 3000ers work.. the dream jobs are always race routes.. take someone around a route talking them around the race.. being paid to do what you love doing..

    Its interesting we also get walkers wanting to hire us and they'll almost brag on the hill that they have international runners as guides, it goes right back to the history of fell running. i.e. Guides races..

    One of the top climbing guides calls it 'removing the pain'.. so that's what you try to do as a guide.. in todays society the relatively cash rich time are common, so we meet people with limited time and provide good runs in good scenery..

    contacting local running clubs can sometimes provide some of that in other areas.
    Last edited by IainR; 12-04-2012 at 01:15 PM.

  2. #12
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    Re: Fellrunning article

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodders View Post
    They are regulars here. Mountain running coaching is UKA sponsored/sanctioned. Check out this thread for some more info:

    http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showt...g-coaching-day
    And no its not.. at all which is why its so woefully done in its present guise.. another example of how the system is so dangerous.. a fell running ML is 100 x better qualified to take someone out running on the fells than any UKA sponsored/sanctioned award is. There is NO award sponsored or sanctioned by UKA which would enable a runner to lead an off road run..

    As Witto points out it can be lead by experience.. as long as the guide claims that openly, that's fine,.. or by an ML/WGL type award..

    My fear, which I said right from the off.. is these Leadership in Fell running fitness awards have caused confusion, hence your comment and recent adverts on websites.. they just are not for coaching mountain running in the sense of going out and safely mountain running.. however the poor remit of the award, only clear for those who have done the award (ie not potential clients/end users), means we have this confustion..

  3. #13
    Master IainR's Avatar
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    Re: Fellrunning article

    I was just missing you.. knew you'd be reading.. quaking that someone has had the gall to speak without going through the FRA.. I'm dissapointed we're on page 2 and I'm still to see unnecessarily large words and latin.. is he OK?

  4. #14
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    Re: Fellrunning article

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    I'm not sure that the FRA would say they are there to "promote" fell running in each of the Home Countries. They are there to oversee it - the custodians of it perhaps - but shy away from promotion..
    FROM THE FRA CONSTITUTION:

    1. OBJECTS


    1. The FRA is established for the following objects (the "Objects"):


      1. (a) to accept a transfer of the operations and affairs, assets and liabilities of the Association and to become the successor body to the Association;
      2. (b) to encourage and promote fell running and allied mountain races having due regard to the environmental and other impacts of the sport;
      3. (c) to provide services to competitors, clubs and race organisers;
      4. (d) to establish, uniform regulations for the conduct of competitors, clubs and race organisers; and
      5. (e) to observe the Rules in so far as they concern fell running.


    So the FRA do say they promote fell running.. 2b.. it's very clear.. anyway by which they mean fell racing.. not fell running..

    I wouldn't say they are custodians.. they can't ban someone from fell running.. just FRA races.. there is a world of fell running outside of the FRA and outside of racing..

  5. #15
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    Re: Fellrunning article

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodders View Post
    They are regulars here. Mountain running coaching is UKA sponsored/sanctioned. Check out this thread for some more info:

    http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showt...g-coaching-day
    In a way to back up Iain - this is a coaching qualification as you say Rodders and all UKA/EA awards linked in to Fell Running are coach based and in the main associated with technique. The courses are largely the same as the endurance course, with perhaps a little more emphasis on running technique for off-road, climbing and descending and how to coach it.

    The "Leaders" awards are geared to clubs of mainly seniors, where they don't necessarily want organised sessions with technical input, they just want someone with a degree of safety awareness to organise and lead group training runs eg. Let's all meet at Sedbergh Peoples Hall and head up to Arant Haw and back.
    That "Leader" may be happy to just be that - a group leader organiser - but he may want to go on to some specific coaching qualification. That would be the next step.

    Perhaps though Iain, the ML course is inappropriately named and should be called a Mountain Guides qualification. That is then as clear as can be, so it's perhaps an unclear description by both parties that could do with looking at.

  6. #16
    Master IainR's Avatar
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    Re: Fellrunning article

    Guides.. that's a difficult word.. a Guide is a qualification..

    Even using the term 'Running Guide' was questioned.. but as we use the term running.. we clearly step away from the climbing side.. even now, officially we remain 'Snowdonia Running Guides' but now go by 'Run Snowdonia' as it removes the use of the term guide.. when you get into outdoor qualifications you have to know your own and other qualifications.. which I think such knowledge was lacking in some incidences..

    But a 'Mountain Guide' is far more from a 'Mountain Leader'.. a mountain guide would be qualified to take people climbing etc, in terrain an ML wouldn't or shouldn't operate. It's outside of our remit. We may guide (with a g) in such terrain off experience. I wouldn't. I'm not experienced enough to take clients into such terrain, I'd feel outside my comfort zone.

    But if UKA/FRA want such 'leaders' the courses are woeful. Not fit for purpose. Group management and Nav should be the two core parts of that, with associated First Aid.. There is no need for such courses anyway, there is scope for experience. Poorly defined and created courses, designed to reduce liability, actually increase liability.. do something properly or not at all. This is just a box ticking excersise, sufficient for road running or on the track, not in the fells..
    Last edited by IainR; 12-04-2012 at 01:50 PM.

  7. #17
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    Re: Fellrunning article

    yes but Iain, just as the mountaineering side gets a little confused in the way titles are allocated so does UKA.

    The Leadership in Running (and I hate that title) was aimed at the road running clubs that here in the NW are like Accy Road Runners, Blackburn Road Runners, Penny Lane Striders - just a bunch of road runners that meet up 3 times a week and go on organised runs around their town or surrounding countryside.

    It was an effort to bring a little organisation to this, a little structure and perhaps encourage what you may call entry level safety awareness.

    It may not be much, but it is more than was done before.

    Now if you're a Darwen Dashers, the same can be applied to of-road up and down Darwen Tower.

    I don't see that anyone other than one of your numpties, is going to take such a qualification and take it as a green light to arrange expeditions up Aconcagua.

  8. #18
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    Re: Fellrunning article

    I think that was fine.. but the moment you take it off road.. without a remit.. you have issues.. someone strays off the back of a night run over the edge of Bleaklow.. you then have a huge issue on your hands.. such terrain may seem benign, when on a good terrain, but between three of the biggest cities in Britain (Manc, Sheff, Leeds) we have some of the most remote desolate land in Britain.. TBH I'd rather be in unfamiliar terrain in Snowdonia at night then some of those moors..

    I don't think there is any confusion in the mountaineering qualifications.. http://www.mlte.org/ or http://www.bmg.org.uk/

    Our remit is very clear. Can you say the same for UKA awards? Where is the remit.. google LiFR fitness?

    And I know people think I'm trying to get some sort of monoply on the running guiding, but I just saw a website for another guide who I'd encouraged to do it and offered advice too. It's good, its a growing area, but I want it to grow with a credible reputation and I don't think LiFR help at all, I've exchanged emails with numerous other people offering advice and how to find niches.
    Last edited by IainR; 12-04-2012 at 02:02 PM.

  9. #19
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    Re: Fellrunning article

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    and just to wind IainR up

    I'm not sure that the FRA would say they are there to "promote" fell running in each of the Home Countries. They are there to oversee it - the custodians of it perhaps - but shy away from promotion.

    "A running guide should be ML qualified" - I would say it depends on the context and the terrain - not all fell running takes place in Snowdonia. Also, Qualifications are over hyped - I'd quite happily spend some time in the Lakes with Joss and I doubt he has a certificate and I'm sure there's plenty of Clayton Runners who are competent to guide on Pendle Hill.
    I would suggest that a Running Guide should have appropriate experience for the terrain in which they are guiding.
    I'd certainly agree that experience is key to leading groups and certainly there are many club runners out there who are capable of leading club runs however if you are talking about a guide as a prossesional(ie taking money for the service) then they really ought to be qualified to do that. "guide" as per Iains post is a proffessional qualification. An ML is the least I would look at, trained and assessed with experience to make safe decissions enough. a running qualification just adds to that.


    Quote Originally Posted by IainR View Post
    In this sense Mountain running is running in the mountains.. its for UKhillwalking.. for hill walkers..

    Yeah you can differentiate fell running and mountain running but for the target audience there, they don't care about that difference.. I wasn't calling you numpty by the way, just I knew you'd get the 'we own the sport' lot coming on being semantic and just knocking away.. which I expected and enjoy.. :-)

    I actually wanted to put a link earlier.. its been there a good week..

    Re the guiding.. There are a few guides around. Steve Fallon up in Scotland does some I think, us in North Wales, then one in North Yorkshire (Jellylegs?), he posts on here, then people like IanDP will do some i think, then there are others. But a guide who actually claims part qualification.. yet lists experience, backed out of one race due to adverse weather conditions.. yet they are wanting clients to pay them to guide them through such weather.. its why experience may be enough, but it is fraught with dangers and you have to think about how the target audience can judge that experience..

    Sadly it will take deaths in fell running and such like until we see the sport calm down a bit.. People can call it alarmist but the outdoor sports went through huge upheavels following Lime Bay and other disasters..

    Also be careful with some of the 'run with x' weekends.. I won't name them, but I know of one weekend when the elite runner wasn't actually there.. so book through the person the directly..

    If someone wants guiding, basically think what they want, look at the guides profile and see what they can offer. We mainly do intro and intermediate weekends for groups, but do some personal one on one guiding, which is normally 3-4 hr runs. But sometimes its just 1 hr a day, 5 days a week. for someone's holiday. A guy on holiday with the family, limited time and wants a blast on good routes.. others want run scrambles, other 3000ers work.. the dream jobs are always race routes.. take someone around a route talking them around the race.. being paid to do what you love doing..

    Its interesting we also get walkers wanting to hire us and they'll almost brag on the hill that they have international runners as guides, it goes right back to the history of fell running. i.e. Guides races..

    One of the top climbing guides calls it 'removing the pain'.. so that's what you try to do as a guide.. in todays society the relatively cash rich time are common, so we meet people with limited time and provide good runs in good scenery..

    contacting local running clubs can sometimes provide some of that in other areas.
    I'm running a Nav course for runners (full i'm afraid) next week to raise funds for the MR and will have 2 ML's and a couple of top Orienteers helping out.

    I'm also looking at a similar scheme for the peak with another ML and top runner(he's a coach as well) I'm hoping to expand that to guided runs in scotland.

    I regularly take walkers and runners round the PPP these tend to be corperate clients from the south coast. I agree that the PPP hardly needs a "guide" but there are many out there who just want to have a day out with the out having to think about the route/safety. same goes for the Nat PPP.

    I'll not mention any more as I don't want to be seen to be advertising on here.

  10. #20
    Master IainR's Avatar
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    Re: Fellrunning article

    Quote Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak View Post
    I'd certainly agree that experience is key to leading groups and certainly there are many club runners out there who are capable of leading club runs however if you are talking about a guide as a prossesional(ie taking money for the service) then they really ought to be qualified to do that. "guide" as per Iains post is a proffessional qualification. An ML is the least I would look at, trained and assessed with experience to make safe decissions enough. a running qualification just adds to that.




    I'm running a Nav course for runners (full i'm afraid) next week to raise funds for the MR and will have 2 ML's and a couple of top Orienteers helping out.

    I'm also looking at a similar scheme for the peak with another ML and top runner(he's a coach as well) I'm hoping to expand that to guided runs in scotland.

    I regularly take walkers and runners round the PPP these tend to be corperate clients from the south coast. I agree that the PPP hardly needs a "guide" but there are many out there who just want to have a day out with the out having to think about the route/safety. same goes for the Nat PPP.

    I'll not mention any more as I don't want to be seen to be advertising on here.
    I think that's who's website I saw today.. (DT?) we were talking with him about it last year in Ireland. Good to see he has got things going.

    There was a group in Scotland, but I'm not sure quite how active they are.. it was our idea when we were based in Glasgow to do it up there but never got around to getting it sorted before we left then came to North Wales and obtained Grants to get set up.. pay for our ML's etc..

    I think runsnowdonia could go full time, but TBH I'm not sure I could do it, physically and mentally.. even when taking it easy being out on your feet all day in Snowdonia affects your racing too. Taking it easy or not, doing 1000m+ of ascent a day really does deaded your legs. If I did that I think I'd do supply teaching and guiding and mix and match.

    The way people are now, it seems lots want organised holidays as much as possible, linking in with other people to form social groups for a week.. that's why I don't think guides in each area should see others as direct competition as I think we'll see many doing the rounds of different areas.
    Last edited by IainR; 12-04-2012 at 07:04 PM.

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