Age limits

[Witton Park]

I believe there are significant differences between the manner in which the track & field and X/C disciplines operate as compared with fell running.

As I understand it track & field and X/C are totally club focussed with events frequently being part of leagues and the individuals would usually be entered (pre-entered?) by their clubs who are fully conversant with the UKA age category rules for juniors.

The situation is very different for fell running.

For 2012 the FRA has provided Permits for over 150 events which have races specifically for juniors. In addition there are about 250 Short Category Senior races which some juniors are eligible to enter. Some of the juniors entering will be unattached. Several of the juniors and their parents may not be very conversant with the "age on 1st Jan" rule.

The vast majority of this very large number of races have entry on the day of the race, often with a couple of hundred people entering in a relatively short period of time with little time for the officials to be checking the Category entered against the date of birth on the form to see if a junior runner is entering the correct category.

It seems to me that under these circumstances "age on the day" of the race is much more straightforward to understand and operate by all those involved including race organisers, officials, junior runners, parents etc.

As already mentioned special arrangements can be made for the six Junior Championship races to ensure that an individual remains in the same Category throughout the season.

OK, so when the statistical check was done, it was clear that the rule breaches were not as a result of lack of understanding, they were down to lack of respect for the rules and the ROs...
The Bunny Runs have been singled out - but we all know that these races are clearly for U14s and there have been cases of Juniors who were even U10s running.

Those juniors come from clubs such as Wharfedale and Ilkley and the runners and their connections know full well that this is against the rules of the FRA so what action has been taken against them or their clubs?
Nothing I dare say.

No, instead we change the rules.

These rule changes will not stop such wanton, intentional breaches.

[Witton Park]

As already mentioned special arrangements can be made for the six Junior Championship races to ensure that an individual remains in the same Category throughout the season.

How???

It's been mentioned of course, but I refer you to my post 22.

How will you enable that athlete who will be U14 when it comes to Clougha, to be able to run in the U12 race?

[AndyA]

I've just noticed this thread, having fired off an email to Duncan R on the subject. I suspect however that he has nothing to do with the proposed change (he's only the junior coordinator after all) and probably isn't particularly happy with it either.

History has shown that the FRA committee (as with most committees), with isolated exceptions are not interested in the opinions of those they purport to represent, i.e the junior coaches and race organisers who will have to deal with this change.

They have not bothered to consult the clubs on this matter (any junior coaches been approached?) and are intent on ramming this change through, irrespective of our opinions.

A change to 'age on race day' is a significant backward step that will destroy the sense of continuity that juniors have during a season; fellow competitors will come and go as they change age categories at random intervals throughout the year.

The discussion regarding championship races is irrelevant to most runners; it's the fiercely contested local races between rival clubs that matter to them.

A compromise would be to change to the school year system (age on 31st August) used by XC leagues; kids can always tell you immediately what school year they are in and this would eliminate confusion at the registration desk.

[AndyA]

How???

It's been mentioned of course, but I refer you to my post 22.

How will you enable that athlete who will be U14 when it comes to Clougha, to be able to run in the U12 race?

Excellent point Richard; it's not like senior races where v40 and v50 are running the same race; these kids are in completely different races and it's clearly impossible to put a runner into a different race for championship points purposes.

A kid who 'graduates' an age category between races cannot possibly be scored against fellow runners in a series format; it's just nonsense.

At Clayton Harriers we run a 'summer series' within the club, whereby we take the best four positions (against fellow club runners) out of an eight race series and award age category prizes; this will have to be abandoned if this change gets pushed through.

Come on FRA; it's not too late to admit your mistake and abandon this folly, you just have to listen to us for a change and stop digging your heels in.

[Witton Park]

Excellent point Richard; it's not like senior races where v40 and v50 are running the same race; these kids are in completely different races and it's clearly impossible to put a runner into a different race for championship points purposes.

A kid who 'graduates' an age category between races cannot possibly be scored against fellow runners in a series format; it's just nonsense.

At Clayton Harriers we run a 'summer series' within the club, whereby we take the best four positions (against fellow club runners) out of an eight race series and award age category prizes; this will have to be abandoned if this change gets pushed through.

Come on FRA; it's not too late to admit your mistake and abandon this folly, you just have to listen to us for a change and stop digging your heels in.

But they haven't answered have they Andy? 2 FRA committee members who were party to this change get involved in the debate and then go quiet when a difficult question is asked.
Perhaps they'll need an EGM

It certainly isn't too late to review and if they don't review, then they will have chaos as they really haven't thought this through.

[Witton Park]

In light of this, I think the Junior Committee that Duncan has set up, should have some official standing eg. The FRA should defer junior matters across to this committee for them to look at and then return their findings to the FRA main committee.
The FRA committee should retain primacy, but we need to ensure that decisions affecting juniors are dealt with by the people that are in the best position to consider them.
Perhaps some of the Junior Committee should have places on the FRA Committee?

[Graham Breeze]

UK Athletics Proposed Rule Change

Rule 410 Age Limits

Replace ‘Ages on 1^st January in year of competition’ with ‘Age on day of race ‘

This has been agreed by all four home countries through MRAG and is now with UKA for approval by the UKA Board.

GB

[Witton Park]

Of course I know this Graham. That still doesn't mean it will go through.

However, you are clearly batting for this change and Chair of the FRA, so at least have the courtesy of explaining in a reasonable and straight forward manner the problem I have raised in post 22 & 26.

Under the new rules Pendle will be based on 6th April U12 and Clougha on June 22nd U12.

An 11 year old running at Pendle with Birthday 1st May will be an U12 at Pendle, but will be an U14 by Clougha.

But if these races are in the Champs, the Champs calculates based on 1st Jan, but the races are governed by Rule 410, age on day.

These races are not standalone Champs races and even if they were the races still need the UKA permit so rule 410 applies.

Please explain how this will be resolved.

How will you enable that athlete who will be U14 when it comes to Clougha, to be able to run in the U12 race?

[FRAFixtures]

I believe there is a danger of confusing the maximum distance limits for age with the categories used at individual junior races. UKA Rule 10 is only concerned with the maximum distances run by juniors at particular ages and does not specifically stipulate the age groupings to be used at junior races.

As I understand it an individual race organiser can choose to use whatever junior age categories he wants at his race so long as the youngest runner in any category doesn't run further than the distance stipulated in the UKA/FRA rules.

So if the maximum distance limits are based on age on the day of the race someone who becomes 14, for example, during the year is allowed to compete at distances up to 5km until they become 14 and thereafter at distances of up to 7km.

A race organiser will then be able to choose to organise a race for those who are 14 or 15 (U16) on race day with a distance of up to 7km. I would have thought this to be the most straightforward arrangement for organisers, junior runners, their parents etc.

However it is recognised that for race series, such as the English Junior Championships, competitors need to stay in the same category throughout the series. Therefore the organisers of such race series will be able to use a differently specified U16 category eg based on a competitor's age on Jan. 1st. In this situation the runner who, for example, becomes 14 after Jan. 1st will have to enter the U14 category for the series with a maximum distance of 5km because some of the runners in this category will be under 14 for the whole series.

[Witton Park]

First 4 paragraphs Margaret and I'm with you - I don't agree, but I understand. I don't agree because the junior age groups are established. The rules are set for them and races tend to work within those rules and that fits well when the FRA Champs attaches to a race as the age grouping for the established race is the same as for the Champs.
It also applied where you had local leagues, inter club series and local leagues such as Kendal Winter League.

Consistency, simplicity - that's what we had.

But you say in paragraph 5 "the Organisers of such races..." as if these are different organisers, as if these organisers are coming forward to put on new races that are one-offs just for the FRA Champs.
Of course that does happen from time to time such as Cowpe and Hawkswick, but we also use races such as Pendle, AW, Coiners, Rivington, Darwen... which are races that run year on year whether the FRA Champs comes to town or not.

So you expect them to now change their race structure and age grouping when Champs hosting? Good luck with that one - some will and some won't. Duncan and his successors will have even more difficulty now getting hosts.

As Lancs Fell Secretary you have now created a situation for me where I may have athletes in an age category for 3 years and some only for 1 year.

Mow we will have 2 systems, confusion and I dare say an increase in the breaches which I reckon will happen even at FRA Champs races.

Only time will tell.