Chasing the Dragon

[Derby Tup]

Interesting that you'd suggest skipping the marathon - it seems like a sensible interim goal/progress check to me - can you elaborate a little on why not?
I tend to regard walking as "not really exercise", because I don't get out of breath or feel tired the day after (apparently regardless of distance, though I've never done more than 15 miles or so in one go; this might be another hyperactive-bastard trait) - to what extent is walking a long distance over a given terrain, good practice for running it?

The point is you won't be running large parts of any mountain challenge, but hard, fast, hilly walking. Training for a marathon would involve running not walking and would help general fitness / hardness (not necessarily the same thing!) but not be specific for what you're planning to do

[molehill]

Ok, Couch to dragons back in 18 months, wow...

Maybe doable, but:

1, You won't be racing it, you should 'just' aim to survive it.
2, You should be prepared for the very real possibility of very serious injury and/or illness in the 6-12 months following the event.

I was there last year. I saw what it did and has done to people, VERY fit people - with years of running behind them.
.

Exactly, it shredded some very fit people. It was clear by day2 that those with plenty of mountain experience (mainly mountain marathons) were coping far better (mentally as well as physically) than those without, nothing to do with how fast anyone could run - bear that in mind.

Yes, I did a version with Toffer, Wheeze and others in 2007, which nearly did for us and was helping on last years event and saw what it did to far better runners than I.

[Wheeze]

It did nearly do for us (some more than others!!!) and we doing it over 5 days.
But were also all over 40.
As for couch to dragon in 18 months, I think the most significant hurdle you will face will be the vetting procedure. The only way around this is to forget all about any road based work/racing and focus all your efforts on completing recognized long distance mountain races and challenges. If you survive and present a portfolio of 5 or 6 classic long A fell races, a couple of major rounds and evidence of OMM/LDWA/Endurance life/Sleepmonster type events then you might stand a chance of entry.

A VERY tough call for a non-driver based in the Fens! I would be seriously impressed if you did it!

[Derby Tup]

Ben, if you've already walked 15 miles then a target for the first 6 months might be to do a 50 miler. The Round Rotherham 50 is in October (I think) and doesn't have any entry criteria. A sub say 12hour Round Rotherham 50 would I reckon be a much better step up than a road marathon and a decent challenge in it's own right. It's not particularly hilly so endurance would be your aim rather than climbing

[Wheeze]

Hey Ben, try this.
Llanbedr to Blaenafon, April 6th.
In South Wales so not too far for you to travel.
Its a beast and, at 14 miles, is a good 'starting' benchmark.
It was the first serious fell race I did at 28 off no real fell experience.
I think if you can do it and enjoy it, it will confirm to you that you are the right stuff and you will therefore not be wasting your effort in aiming at the Dragon..
Within a year of doing this I was running 4 hours for the Welsh 1000 metre race.

[mr brightside]

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." - Les Brown

I'm Ben. I should begin with a disclaimer: I'm a bit mad. I do big, outrageous goals, because otherwise how does one get anything awesome done?

Background: I'm seriously hyperactive by nature, but have done almost no structured exercise for the majority of my life. I've always liked the idea of running, especially in wild terrain, but have always been too busy with umpteen other hobbies to devote the amount of time I knew it would take to get good enough to be worth it.

Last year, having reached the grand old age of 27 and settled down a bit, I revisited the idea and decided to go for it, with no actual plan besides "as much as possible as fast as possible". One month of inadvisedly rapid mileage increase (on concrete!) later, cue crippling shin splints and a medically-demanded one-month break from any exercise. Cue in turn characteristic Aspie tantrum :angry: "sod this, I have other hobbies that aren't self-limiting", stop running.

One year later, decide to try again with a more thought-out plan.

But creating an actual plan meant I needed a sufficiently insane goal. Some digging around follows, and it turns out there's this thing called the Dragon's Back Race. Turns out it next runs in mid 2015. That's got to be enough time to train up, I thought. Ah, but no - applications close in September 2014, and all relevant experience for qualification has to be clocked before then. The best 60 applications get guaranteed places, then 60 more are drawn by lottery from all other entrants.

Shrug. Deadlines are good for the soul.

Still, 18 months from couch to "ten marathons in five days over mountains"... clearly this will take some planning. It's not entirely clear what standard of experience is going to be required, but a typical day on the DBR is 30-35 miles with about 15,000 feet of ascent. Ergo, I figure I need to beat both of those figures by a decent amount (in single-day events), as well as doing something multi-day, to have a chance of qualifying.

So my current schedule looks something like this:

First six months (Mar 2013-Sep 2013): reach marathon standard. Demonstrate this by doing the Loch Ness marathon in under 4 hours (preferably under 3:30 - hey, it *is* mostly downhill). This constitutes a gentle introduction that I'm hoping will build enough bone/tendon strength to avoid injuries later on.

Second six months (Sep 2013-Mar 2014): mileage up to ~50mi, with some ascent. Demonstrate this by doing the White Cliffs 50 (53mi, 5,800ft).

Final six months (Mar 2014-Sep 2014): more ascent, multi-day race experience. Great Lakelands 3-Day in May, V3K in June. Sometime in late August/early September, either the Mourne 500 or (if things are going really well) at least an *attempt* at a Bob Graham round.

Oh, and somewhere along the way, learn how to use a map and compass. I'm thinking that's probably not very hard, but since the closest I've ever come to map-reading is tabletop role-playing, I realise I could be totally wrong...

I am aware that on the 1-10 madness scale, this is somewhere around a 12. See above re landing amongst the stars.

I'm based in Cambridgeshire, so getting hill experience is going to be "interesting" (especially since I don't drive). I do have various ideas for increasing the difficulty of running around fens (Training Mask, shoe weights, heavy backpacks...), but I figure a lot of long weekends out to real geography are going to be required. Per the other Cantabrigian thread (hi, Irrevocable!), I'm looking at the Midsummer Madness weekend in June for an initial taster of real fell running.

So... experienced people... tips (other than "don't do it, you mad sod"), ideas for better ways to arrange my training schedule, etc?

When i came into fell running my ambitions were broadly similar to yours, but i had a much longer ramp-up through long distance walking and general summit bagging. It became apparrent i didn't have the knees for the job and since then i've been locked in a battle. Try and be prepared to alter your plan if you hit trouble, don't try and run through trouble.

[Tahr]

I am no expert in ultra-long distance running, done a couple of MM and am training for the BG at the minute. I think it is important to highlight a few of points. I think I read it takes 12 years of constant training to reach your full running potential, I have been running for 9 and it seems it might be right as I am getting quicker each year despite being 50 next year. My back ground before that was 8 years of intensive sport although not running. To do the Dragon Back race on 18 months training without a running back ground is a big challenge.

I think as already been said you need to first qualify, then think of the event, I would look to do every MM you can find in the next 12 months, I would think you would need to be near the very first to finish in these events to get a chance of being considered for the DB. From nothing to the top of a MM in 12 months, that would be some achievement.

You might have the mental strength and determination to do the training but as you have already found out your body can only take so must so quickly before it breaks down. All the top guys will have just as much determination and mental strength as you have, don’t get deluded into thinking they won’t.

If somebody said I have never played football other than kicked a ball round the park a couple of times but in 18 months I want to play in the premiership what would you say? This is a kin to what you are trying to achieve.

For ultra-events most people peak in there middle 30s, as you are 27 that would give you around 10 years to peak, this is ideal, and would work in with a long term plan. Start with joining a fell running club training and running 10-15 fell races, working towards the Saunders MM this June then the RAB MM in September and the OMM in October. Once you have ran a couple ofMMs you will have an idea of how far you have to go before you will be accepted for a the DB. Learn to drive or get a session rail ticket.

The final component is home/work life, my job prevents me from training as much and when I wish, maybe you don’t work or have a job that will complement your training, Military, Gym instructor, PE teacher to think of some, then your wife/partner, the money you will spend all this will come into play, a longer term plan will allow not only your body to adjust but also enable to balance the rest of your life.

I wish you well and it would be inspirational if you could make the DB standard in 18 months but do consider the long term option.

ATB

Tahr

[BZealley]

Wow, that's a lot of really detailed and helpful responses! Thanks so much, everyone

Very helpful to hear such a strong consensus that I should be envisaging this kind of event more as a very long hike with some running than a very long run with some hiking - as it were.

I'm going to stick with a certain amount of flatland running training, since it's semi-relevant and the only enjoyable form of cardio I have access to on an average day, but I'll de-prioritise speed entirely in favour of harsher terrain and particularly any chance to do a more genre-specific event like an MM.

I'm going to write up a new and more informed training plan over the next week or two, and then probably ask more daft questions - particularly relating to what type of experience is going to be the most appealing to the vetting judges. Relieved not to hear anyone say "they'll rule you out on principle with only 18 months' experience of any kind", which I was a little concerned about.

molehill: thanks for the detailed and gritty description! It has not put me off, but did make me pause for a moment

that_fjell_guy said "...'blinkered optimist'... isn't necessarily a bad thing until it gets him in bother up a fell somewhere!!". I do acknowledge that being inadequately prepared for an event like this would represent at best a hassle and at worst a risk to other people. I also work on life extension medicine (the real kind; not skin creams, think stem cells) and want to survive a good long time myself, so I'm not going to take *silly* risks, just planned ones (partly, actually, in the hope of raising some publicity for our work) ;-) For example, if I do get in to the DBR itself, I'd consider it mandatory to carry a satellite phone, not just a mobile, in case of emergency.

Tahr: I do work, but essentially solely over the internet, and on a form of permanent flexi-time that allows me to set pretty much any schedule I like, so long as it averages out to 40 hours a week over the quarter. I do have a very lovely fiancée, but she understands my characteristic need to undertake random mad challenges and only makes me pay for it in extra housework and massages ;-)

Really interesting to find out I'm serendipitously at a good age to take this up long-term!

There's no Cambridge fellrunning group per se that I can find, but Cambridge & Coleride Athletics Club apparently have some interested members, so I'll touch base with them, especially since I see a number of the MMs would allow me into a tougher category, sooner, with an experienced partner...!

Wheeze - re Llanbedr to Blaenafon on Apr 6 - I'm booked for something else pretty important on that date, which is kind of a pain - I agree that looks like a great introductory event. How often do races this suitable for a first timer run? I definitely agree that actually doing a substantial fell race as soon as possible is the best way to get a sense of scale. (What's your opinion of the Midsummer Madness 3-day?)

[that_fjell_guy]

Nice to see you're taking this all in BZ. I'd definately take note of IanFitz, Wheeze and Molehill who, I believe, have a lot of experience of these type of ultra long fell races etc. Not really any idea of Mid-summer Madness, not a race I've had a direct interest in, but like a few have said, when you start looking there are a lot of major endurance events kicking about these days. Have a really good look at the LDWA site, Uk Ultra site, all three 'National' Hill running sites i.e Fellrunners, Scotish Hill Running and the welsh equivilent. My guess is you'll only get in through the draw so work to that and be prepared for a major dissapointment if not selected. I'd suggest having another big event as back up. Genuinely good luck with this! I think there's a chance of success (..because there always is!), but if I'm honest I think its slim at best! Good luck and keep us informed of progress.

P.S. Have you thought of doing a blog for it, these seem pretty popular. Don't go off mine as its somewhat stalled!