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Thread: Broad Stand

  1. #11
    Member mtbfell's Avatar
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Thanks for the advice, having searched the forums for related info on this subject and having ascended LR WWT, descended Foxes Tarn and down the stream, I would like to experience BS but may just stick to what I know on the day LR WWT. It is scary enough on the WWT up the gulley looking at those significant drops to your left and the scramble out the top onto Scafell. Food for thought...
    Lonsdale Fell Runners

  2. #12
    Master L.F.F.'s Avatar
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank View Post
    If going up BS involves having my arse groped by a bloke with a camera strapped to his head, no thanks, I'm out.
    That's my Friday night viewing sorted.
    Josh Hubbard - Ambleside AC

  3. #13
    alwaysinjured
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbfell View Post
    Thanks for the advice, having searched the forums for related info on this subject and having ascended LR WWT, descended Foxes Tarn and down the stream, I would like to experience BS but may just stick to what I know on the day LR WWT. It is scary enough on the WWT up the gulley looking at those significant drops to your left and the scramble out the top onto Scafell. Food for thought...
    Not sure the video gives a representative picture.
    Reality is if you are a competent scrambler and re willing to reccie the moves several times with protection , it does become straightforward in climbing terms in the right conditions, BUT as has been said those pictures do not do justice to the exposure.

    In essence there are two ways up. The direct route up the corner ( climber 1 video ) which involves pulling up a vertical face where the top is at full stretch ie getting up a vertical face the height of a door. Whilst there is a good hand hold in the corner, there is precious little except friction holds for feet, so my view is certainly severe or above. It is in my view lunacy the lower guy pushing up because if the upper guy slips it would be curtains for both - but at least it ascends from the relatively flat section of platform. As a solo climber it is possibly easier using your left hand on the top of corner hold, feet walking up the corner which is generally wet, rolling onto the top. It is a long way back down for feet if you try to reverse, since the top is full reach.

    The easier route up ( climber2) is a hand traverse Left of 6-8 feet moving hands across top left whilst traversing feet left up a sloping lip at knee height until you can get left foot onto a flake initially at shoulder height, and then straightforward step up to the top from there. The holds are fairly positive, but certainly not a jug hold like the corner.

    But there is the problem, the traverse is left out over the drop, very exposed and reversing the move is out of balance and not easy for a non climber, in the end you steady to upright reversing the move by reaching for the right hand wall at the end of the reverse traverse to stand back on the platform upright. It is my view that some may fall because they try the traverse but find they cannot get up but cannot get back in balance reversing it, eventually falling because they step down out of balance and topple over, and the fact that it is as near as makes no difference overhanging . It is probably only diff or vdiff as a move in objective climbing terms but the situation makes it feel a lot more serious than that.


    Even getting down from the shelf down the sloping slab is awkward till you get used to where the foot holds are, certainly whilst damp, which broadstand often is, because it is out of the sun.

    I am a climber, but I still carry small nuts and a sling( or you could use a short length of rope). The nuts slot into cracks high up in the corner and can be pulled out from above, if you are organised the nuts take only a miute to place and remove, but at least you are more likely to walk home afterwards. Even then it needs recceing, not doing sight unseen on a BG
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 30-08-2013 at 10:09 PM.

  4. #14
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Placing a couple of nuts may seem like a good idea but if you equalise them with a sling and then clip the sling you may feel safe but that sling is (essentially) static - if you fell above the wires then you have a situation where you can easily snap the sling eg. a factor 2 fall on a static line....
    You may of course just be talking about placing the nuts for some aid...which of course would be fine.

  5. #15
    alwaysinjured
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by mikekeswick View Post
    Placing a couple of nuts may seem like a good idea but if you equalise them with a sling and then clip the sling you may feel safe but that sling is (essentially) static - if you fell above the wires then you have a situation where you can easily snap the sling eg. a factor 2 fall on a static line....
    You may of course just be talking about placing the nuts for some aid...which of course would be fine.

    You cannot "easily break a sling" used for this purpose - indeed your best efforts to try to break it in the context suggested would fail. The purpose of the sling is not to break a fall, double or otherwise but to prevent a further slide once fallen which is the problem for broad stand fallers, and to constrain that sidewards slipping motion - the initial impact ( which would be gradual anyway) is taken by your feet back on the platform before the sling is understrain.

    If you dont believe me MSc, CEng and various other letters that mean I know plenty about loading calcs, take ten or fifteen feet of rope instead: depending on what you use as a makeshift harness.. It is all you need. It just uses more space in the bumbag.
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 04-09-2013 at 09:39 PM.

  6. #16
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    Re: Broad Stand

    You may not snap the sling, but a fall onto static gear may snap something in your lower back or pelvis. Don't know the figures, but I can remember being strongly advised against climbing above gear if you were clipped in to it directly with a static sling (when setting up a belay for example) in case you fell onto it. If the gear didn't rip, I was told you could easily crush or fracture something. I suppose that's why via ferrata gear has the capability to absorb the shock, to protect the climber as well as reduce the forces on the gear.

  7. #17
    alwaysinjured
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by jackd View Post
    You may not snap the sling, but a fall onto static gear may snap something in your lower back or pelvis. Don't know the figures, but I can remember being strongly advised against climbing above gear if you were clipped in to it directly with a static sling (when setting up a belay for example) in case you fell onto it. If the gear didn't rip, I was told you could easily crush or fracture something. I suppose that's why via ferrata gear has the capability to absorb the shock, to protect the climber as well as reduce the forces on the gear.
    Repeat. This is not a vertical fall on a static sling.
    Have you seen the location we are talking about?
    if you dont believe me take a short length of rope, The mainissue is, the scramble is protectable with fine nuts that can be pulled from above, and inserted/ climbed/ removed in two minutes. Much safer than free climbing,
    Wish I had not bothered raising it.
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 04-09-2013 at 10:11 PM.

  8. #18
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysinjured View Post
    Repeat. This is not a vertical fall on a static sling.
    Have you seen the location we are talking about?
    if you dont believe me take a short length of rope, The mainissue is, the scramble is protectable with fine nuts that can be pulled from above, and inserted/ climbed/ removed in two minutes. Much safer than free climbing,
    Wish I had not bothered raising it.

    Yes I know it. Been up and down it quite a few times when climbing on east buttress or going between scafell pike and scafell. I know what you are saying about hitting the platform with your feet, but if the sling gets loaded a bit more than expected, then it could hurt - that's all I mean. For someone with experience who knows the limits of the set up (as you obviously do) I'm sure it's a good solution.

  9. #19
    alwaysinjured
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by jackd View Post
    Yes I know it. Been up and down it quite a few times when climbing on east buttress or going between scafell pike and scafell. I know what you are saying about hitting the platform with your feet, but if the sling gets loaded a bit more than expected, then it could hurt - that's all I mean. For someone with experience who knows the limits of the set up (as you obviously do) I'm sure it's a good solution.
    For anyone interested in math modelling - you choose the length of the sling ( or rope ) to give you just sufficient freedom to climb up at the horizontal distance left of the flake foothold from the corner. therefore if the platform were not there the fall would in essnce be a pendulum at the radius of that distance ( perhaps 3 m). Calculate the energy you have mgh - to calculate the hirozontal velocity at the positon below the corner, 0.5mv.2 - so v.2=2gh - where h is the same radius r from that velocity calculate the centripetal force taken by the rope or sling mv.2/r - and you can see that the force taken for a 100kg climber would be of order kN on a sling with breaking stress 20 kn plus even if there was no platform , so way inside the spec. The motion is essentially lateral/ pendulum.

    Except the fall is actually halted by impact with the platform long before being below the corner and most of that energy is dissipated before the sling has to take very much at all.

    It is not a vertical fall on a static sling, it is only there to stop a slip, and the inevitable slide that would result after impact with the sloping left hand side of the platform


    If you dont believe me or have concerns take a short length of rope - the thread is focussing on the wrong issue - the abiliuty to protect with nuts removable from above. You can take the rope with pretied half figure of 8, attached to the nuts by screwgate, and all you have to do is take it out of bumbag, slot the nuts, complete the figure of 8 round waist and up you go and one short yank takes out the nuts. Back in bumbag.( which is how I carry it in my sack to stop it tangling and also, so I can put round my waist before fat mans, so is accessible without removing sack on broad stand itself. Done.

    Reccie first to know the right lengths, I have two nuts with white tape in my climbing gear selected for broadstand
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 04-09-2013 at 11:06 PM.

  10. #20
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysinjured View Post
    For anyone interested in math modelling - you choose the length of the sling to give you just sufficient freedom to climb up at the horizontal distance of the flake foothold from the corner. therefore if the platform were not there the fall would in essnce be a pendulum at the radius of that distance ( perhaps 3 m). Calculate the energy you have mgh - to calculate the hirozontal velocity at the positon below the corner, 0.5mv2 - so v2=2gh - where h is the same radius r from that velocity calculate the centripetal force taken by the rope or sling mv2/r - and you can see that the force taken for a 100kg climber would be of order kN on a sling with breaking strain20 kn plus even if there was no platform. The motion is essentially lateral/ pendulum.

    Except the fall is halted by impact with the platform and all that energy dissipated before the sling has to take very much at all.

    It is not a vertical fall on a static sling, it is only there to stop a slip, after impact with the platform


    If you dont believe me or have concerns take a short length of rope - the thread is focussing on the wrong issue - the abiliuty to protect with nuts removable from above. You can take the rope with pretied half figure of 8, attached to the nuts by screwgate, and all you have to do is take it out of bumbag, sot the nuts, complete the figure of 8 ,up you go and one short yank takes out the nuts. Back in bumbag. done.
    Well I have to admit, you've lost me there with the maths. I was always over cautious with climbing (probably one of the reasons i was never very good at it) and liked to have things as safe as possible. For me, on a round, I'd want a rope (a tight one from above) as after 12 hours on the go I wouldn't want to solo it or rely on my own judgement to get the gear set right. I suppose if in doubt, using lords rake/wwt or foxes is a reasonable way to look at it.

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