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Thread: Broad Stand

  1. #21
    Senior Member bigfella's Avatar
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Would drugs help?

    I have no idea what this comment was about or what it was in reply to, sorry.
    Last edited by bigfella; 09-09-2013 at 06:48 PM.
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  2. #22
    alwaysinjured
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by jackd View Post
    Well I have to admit, you've lost me there with the maths. I was always over cautious with climbing (probably one of the reasons i was never very good at it) and liked to have things as safe as possible. For me, on a round, I'd want a rope (a tight one from above) as after 12 hours on the go I wouldn't want to solo it or rely on my own judgement to get the gear set right. I suppose if in doubt, using lords rake/wwt or foxes is a reasonable way to look at it.
    Just think pendulum on rope of right length, rather than deadstop vertical fall on to limit of slack rope ( or sling) Stress is far less.

    Re wanting tight rope above for round - most would agree. This a suggestion only for the confident climber or scrambler who want to try to eliminate risk of a fatality, or for safer reccie. The main problem of BS for well supported rounds is the bottleneck effect particularly in high season.

    Me personally, I dont like the upper part of the descent to the foot of lords rake, which for me is slow , rest and Wwwt are OK Foxes is a long way down first.
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 05-09-2013 at 01:08 AM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Broad Stand

    I understand your equations and I also understand fall factors. I am also a qualified climbing guide with over 10 years experience of taking climbing falls in many, many different situations. In an ideal world you may fall how you are expecting...however the real world fall may be quite different to what you may expect.
    If you need any roped assistance on Broad Stand then the only safe way is either a top or bottom rope (or course leading it).
    I will correct you by saying that it IS very easy to snap a sling and the nuts in a situation like you describe.
    Sure I get what you are saying about the fall being more of a penduluming slide than a true lead fall....however you are getting into very, very dangerous territory by climbing above a piece/pieces of gear on a sling (or short section of dynamic rope). Slings WILL snap with even a short fall directly onto them - in fact climbing above a sling is one of the most dangerous things you can do in climbing.
    DMM have done a very good video demonstrating this exact scenario - if you don't believe me

  4. #24
    alwaysinjured
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by mikekeswick View Post
    I understand your equations and I also understand fall factors. I am also a qualified climbing guide with over 10 years experience of taking climbing falls in many, many different situations. In an ideal world you may fall how you are expecting...however the real world fall may be quite different to what you may expect.
    If you need any roped assistance on Broad Stand then the only safe way is either a top or bottom rope (or course leading it).
    I will correct you by saying that it IS very easy to snap a sling and the nuts in a situation like you describe.
    Sure I get what you are saying about the fall being more of a penduluming slide than a true lead fall....however you are getting into very, very dangerous territory by climbing above a piece/pieces of gear on a sling (or short section of dynamic rope). Slings WILL snap with even a short fall directly onto them - in fact climbing above a sling is one of the most dangerous things you can do in climbing.
    DMM have done a very good video demonstrating this exact scenario - if you don't believe me

    I have seen the vid long ago , when I bought dyneema slings, and it is clearly inappropriate to the situation described. They are dropping aload on vertical l factors 1 -2 straight onto the sling. . I challenge you to slip from " the move " on broad stand without jumping and not hitting the platform first! So my presumption is the impact with platform is not the killer problem-, it is the slide / toppling sideways afterwards. Since my suggestion is using the slings calibrated to be right length to allow the move to be made they are not extending On factor 1 or 2 free fall - nor is anyone climbing above the gear they are out to the side with the sling - or rope - more or less full length, and it makes a difference.

    I am tempted to make a video of the pendulum effect, and post it here to illustrate the difference in load terms: The vertical deceleration ( transferred into sideways motion) happens over a lot greater distance and time so the loading is far less. if my experiment does not confirm my load Calcs and what good old engineering nouse says, I will own up and say so. Will have to find a local tree capable of the 80 k loading! - should make an interesting experiment!

    As for " short section of dynamic rope" there is no difference between that and leading so you are picking nits for the sake of it/ point scoring - ALL I have suggested is there are two places for gear to be placed high up, to protect the move ( which readers may not know - and can be removed from above, obviating the need for a seconder)The emphasis was not on slings and a short length of rope can be used - clearly safer than free climbing, so readers suggest you take 15 feet of rope as I do on occasions.

    I will carry on doing what I know is safeR for me.. You do what you wish. Sorry I got involved in this thread. Now derailed, I entered it to explain what people were seeing in the video of the two climbers for people who had not been there.

    Please do something useful by condemning the one pushing his mate up, in the vid refernced by the OP with even more vigour!
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 05-09-2013 at 10:28 AM.

  5. #25
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    Re: Broad Stand

    All I was saying is that climbing above what is essentially a belay is not a good idea and certainly not best climbing practise. A sling is essentaily the same as a short piece of rope in this situation. The only difference is the minimal amount of extention in the knots of a piece of rope. I am not meaning to score points or nitpick the points I raised are entirely valid. Using a short section of dynamic rope to equalise 2 nuts and then clipping directly to them to protect a move is NOT the same as climbing. We will have to agree to disagree on the safety of your suggested set-up.
    I actually think it is much safer to do the (easy) move unaided in dry conditions. If it's greasy then either go around, get somebody to belay you or simply solo it. I fully understand that if you don't climb much then the soloing option might be a bit scary hence the need for some form of protection. I just think that if you are relying on some form of gear to safeguard your life then it would be the best idea all round to use something that is regarded as best practise by climbers (who have worked out the safest/quickest/simplest ways). Not that i'm saying all climbers are safe....i've seen some horrendously dangerous things done by inexperienced/experienced climbers.

  6. #26
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    Re: Broad Stand

    This "problem" has been solved long ago by Via Ferrata kit where using a simple sling between the cable and your harness is most definitely not recommended.

    If you are going to use climbing equipment on Broad Stand then you need someone to belay and something to belay off. There are wires (and cams?) above the top of the second step so all that is needed is someone to place these and throw a length of rope down and the contender (and others) can tie this round their waist and get assurance on the exposed awkward parts. If that first person needs to protect themselves as they get to the top of the hard bit then they can be belayed as normal - if you come off the hard bit then even with gear in place you are going to swing in to the corner and either hit the platform or the far wall, it's more to stop you falling down and left.

    Obviously if you are setting up the belay and ropes then it's best done in advance of the contender getting there to save time.

    In dry conditions I'd even consider just setting up a handline fixed top and bottom and have those using it clip in with a sling - again you aren't preventing them hitting the ledges only from going over the edge.
    Bob

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  7. #27
    alwaysinjured
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    if you come off the hard bit then even with gear in place you are going to swing in to the corner and either hit the platform or the far wall, it's more to stop you falling down and left.

    Eureka, I finally get through. The short length of rope or sling is too long to stop you hitting the platform, the left hand move up is further left than the step is high, so the via ferrata example is simply a wrong comparison. The rapid shock istaken by the platform, not the rope or sling, which are there to inhibit a slide not a fall.

    As for the suggestion by a climbing instructor to free climb it without protection even in dry, in preference to gear to stop you sliding? Are you serious - did you really mean that mk or did I misunderstand? I prefer not to become an MRT statistic myself.
    "easy" or not , it is seriously exposed, until you work out how to do the move , which is not obvious at first sight, and until then is not necessarily easy either, and can be hard to reverse in balance which ( I think) is why people fall there: the ones who cannot get up, but then cannot get down hanging backwards from the high traverse hand holds, so try to step down out of balance, fall over, then slide.

    How best to support a BG Depends on the size of the party, experience, conditions, traffic jams and so on.
    (FYI was not even commenting on that Bob in a general context , there are by the way two good placements for mid sized cams in cracks in the wall behind the shelf above the " move")
    On that subject - For a party with broad stand to itself clearly a top rope and full harnesses has advantages placed by a climbing pair but NOT if the supporters who are doing the climbing are also running leg 3- the weight of the gear and time scuppers that. There is also no need for all supporters to go up broad stand. only one is needed to ratify Scafell summit so the others could wait just beyond lords rake to join back up with the scafellers for the descent.

    But there are alternatives that may not be as good, can be carried by the party that still offer at least some degree of protection - my suggestion.

    You all seem to forget. My comment was on the video of the OP, the Route choices up via the more exposed easier left , or the harder corner, and that he was certifiably nuts to push his mate up, ( I notice nobody so far condemned that except me!) and pointing out that there is at least some protection , that a solo or pair can put in quickly , that can at least offer some protection against a fall, finally that he should reccie going up and down a few times with proper protection before ever doing it for real. All of that is still true

    Nothing in life is safe. If you stand on broad stand long enough, I can guarantee you will be hit by a big rock, which by itself could kill, so could the fall when it knocks you off, the only question is how long you wait. Could be a minute or a millenia. But the suggestion that solo unprotected is somehow safer than gear used to me is barking.

    The killer with slings and by the way - 38 mm nylon are far more tolerant than dyneema - is slackness, combined with rigidity of connection to the climber, combined with dead stop fall on the sling, from one or more multiples of sling length.

    If any body actually did me the courtesy of reading rather than pushing out trite mantras or comparisons that do not apply, they would know my suggestion is NONE of the above.

    At some point I make a simulated video to illustrate what is meant and the loadings, which has no relation to the via ferrata example or dyneema destructive testing.

    I give up on this thread.
    I can only say I would rather not go up with anyone who advocates unprotected solo, dry or not.
    I prefer to go home at the end myself, which is why I place gear.
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 07-09-2013 at 12:11 AM.

  8. #28
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Quote Originally Posted by bigfella View Post
    Would drugs help?
    I must say, I found the informed discussion on drugs, down the pub, more, well, how can I put it...more helpfully informative, and something one could take a... broader stance on.:closed:
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  9. #29
    Senior Member AlanB's Avatar
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    Re: Broad Stand

    Well, it's been a while since MTBFELL posted their comment, so it would be nice to close this out with their thoughts if / when they've been round.
    I like scrambling.
    I'm not a climber.
    I don't mind exposure.
    BUT BS in my eyes shouldn't even be considered in the damp - which it often is.
    LR/WWT is a good alternative, using more energy and fully doable under wet conditions.
    On my BGR, I felt that I had to do BS for the pure line, but only because I had 3/4 competent climbers with me on that bit and the best climber nearly fell. It was not pretty. We wasted loads of time and even more time on the rocks above, which were wet and greasy too. Time wasnt an issue thankfully but if it were I would not do it either on my own in any conditions or at all in the wet.

    Let us know how you get / got on.

  10. #30
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    Re: Broad Stand

    I will repeat that your suggestion about using a couple of nuts (equalised with whatever material) and using them to 'protect' the move on BS is NOT best practise and never will be - for reasons you are saying don't apply in this situation.
    Just out of interest I have phoned a couple of my friends, both MIC's, who agree with my statement that the safe ways to 'climb' BS are either to lead it with leader placed protection. To top-rope it or to bottom rope it. Or indeed for a COMPETANT person to solo it.
    I understand what you are saying about this exact scenario and the set-up you use and whilst it SHOULD be fine to use what I am saying is that it is not best practise and is not a good idea in my eyes and those of 2 other qualified Mountain Instructors. Indeed if you suggested using your set-up in a Mountain Instructors assessment you would not be passing.
    I understand your posistion and now I hope you understand mine. I am not proporting to be some holier than tho type where everything must always ,and only ,be done by the book.

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