Originally Posted by
alwaysinjured
Mike.
I don't want an argument, or indeed this conversation to continue.
My original comments had nothing to do with determining "best practise" in "ideal conditions" with "unlimited carrying of kit" and the clear benefit of having a "belaying partners". I never stated it was best practise- dunno where you got that from.
I never commented on a how a mountain leader should advise, or even how any party should climb B/S. It depends on experience, conditions, number of supporters, kit capable of being carried, time taken and a heap of other factors.
My remarks had all to do with THIS thread and THAT video shown earlier, showing two guys climbing broad stand who my view are and were nuts!. I notice you do not comment on them? One pushed his mate up at the highest point just left of the crack, and if either had slipped one or both could well have ended up dead. The other, then free climbed the easier move unprotected, on the more exposed left - which I would never do. I explained to the OP there were several ways up, the exposure, and also the possibility of protection to avoid going solo unprotected, and that is all.
Safety is relative, not absolute. There is nothing you can do that is absolutely safe.
The trip in the car to wasdale can be fatal, as can via ferrata lanyards, as the various recalls this last 12 months prove.
So in conclusion: putting in protection in that situation to protect a solo climber, it is hard to see how it could ever end up in a dead weight fall on a sling or short length of dynamic rope - the far more likely outcome a not very graceful plonk back on the platform, before it extends to full length, with slide to the left then hopefully constrained to the length of the sling, and from calculation likely to be well within the loading limits. It MUST be A LOT safer than unprotected soloing. Period. And that is all I said.
The chances of a suitably experienced climber falling (slim) compounded with the possibility of gear breaking in that situation (even slimmer - see the calcs) is highly highly unlikely. And that is all you can say.
Sure there are things you can do to make it even safer....it depends on you , the conditions etc. But almost anything is safer than soloing.
Incidentally if anybody is interested, I did some fall tests using a dead weight ( of a couple of K) on a balance on a sling which recorded max load. It Confirmed exactly what I said, which is instinctive from knowing something about loadings. That if the weight is dropped vertically on the sling below the balance, a large multiple of weight occurs as deceleration load - leading to DMMs illustrative videos.
BUT
When the sling is full length sideways at the point of the drop, the max load is ONLY double the weight of the object,and only a minute fraction of the the max load and way inside the breaking strength of a sling. At 20% of slack in a sideways out sling (which clearly is a realistic limit to how much slack you need to do the move without pulilng gear sideways) then the effect of the drop is less than half of the instantaneous loading that would arise from vertical fall of the length of the sling, and well within the stated limits on slings. Any of this only matters If you manage to find a way to jump so far clear you missed the platform or downslope alltogether..and.I still cant see how you achieve that!
But then consider - even the DMM video did not and did not even try to claim to model the bodies own in built spring and tolerance of or mitigation of loads.
If the body were the stiff dead weight of the weight used in theDMM video, then I am guessing you would risk shattering many of the bones in your body after only an ordinary 2 foot jump onto concrete. That you do not normally injure youself is the springiness in your body. I myself managed to slip with a finger lock at shoulder height on a climb last year, which resulted in a two foot fall onto a knuckle jammed in a crack. It hurt for sure, but did not break my finger or my arm for the self same reason. The body is springy, not as rigid as the simulations imply. So the loads are less.
So my view - is that some protection offered by the means suggested is a lot better than none.
And that is all I am saying.
If becoming a mountain leader involves not assessing or voicing judgements on different loadings in different situations, and the relative safety of different approaches, then I, and I suspect everyone else with a physics or engineering background is precluded from being a mountain leader. When you learned the mantra " dont fall on a sling" did you even consider the situation of full length sideways? . I can probably also fnd ordinary climbng situations when slings have nothing like the strength assumed too. All situations need their own risk assessment.
Not that I have any wish to become a leader. I admire people like you willing to take the risk of guiding, if only because of dear old groucho marxs saying: "it is impossible to make anything foolproof, because fools are so ingenious!"
Everyone has to take their own risk assessments. You have seen mine above.
Unlike you - in conclusion I would never solo it unprotected - however competent the party.
What happens if the hold comes off in your hand, as they do from time to time, or a rock hits you at just the wrong moment? A big muscle cramp occurs at just the wrong moment?
For a party depending on experience conditions, size of party, ability to carry kit at the needed speed and so on, willingness to take time to put on harness on a top rope may well be the right way to go.
If you want to continue the conversation, let us do it by PM instead.
It is now Getting to the point of simply repeating what I (and you) have said
I intend to call DMM and ask them about their reaction or comment on sideways out slings with low slack.
It will be interesting to see if they have even tested it.
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