Start times clockwise

[alwaysinjured]

The club have done no analysis of start times/finish times/success ratios/etc beyond the annual report, examples of which may be found on the club's web site. I'm not sure what Brian (Covell) kept with regards to attempts rather than successes but since I took over his role three years ago it is something that I have thought of presenting. Such data would be highly anonymised and along the lines of: year: 2005; month: 5; start_time: 0000; direction: clockwise; leg 1: 233(mins); leg 2: 258; leg 3: 374; leg 4:315; leg 5: 192. (These are from my round) obviously if someone has done a fast time or is the only anticlockwise round of a year then they are going to be identifiable. It's on my "TODO list" so don't pester me for it

There are obviously certain caveats that need to be applied to any such data, namely there's little allowance for weather or ground conditions or how any individual reacts to those conditions, I suffer quite badly in conditions of high humidity for example but others might find that OK. Also just because someone registers an interest in starting at midnight doesn't mean that they do so: they may change it due to weather or support problems. This problem is most apparent in those who attempt the round but don't succeed since I can't update my data to show this, it's likely to be a minor problem though so the general relationships should hold.

My current thoughts are that you should aim to have the runnable and tricky underfoot sections in the daylight, this means (for a clockwise round) getting to the summit of Blencathra at first light if you are aiming to do Hall's Fell or the parachute descent then you've got the descent to Threlkeld and all of Leg 2 and Leg 3 as well as most if not all of Leg 4 in daylight. This leads to a midnight start, a 1am start if you wish to be sure of daylight on Hall's Fell, maybe 11pm if you are thinking of using Doddick Fell then you are likely to get sunrise somewhere between Clough Head and Great Dodd.

I've tried a 1900 start and had an awful time (at night) on the Helvellyn ridge struggling with both fog and rain in even locating the path, stumbling over protruding stones that were nearly impossible to pick out. I think that you need to know how much the darkness affects your running speed, the Skiddaw leg is generally slow enough that darkness doesn't make that much difference especially since the route is increasingly obvious on the ground.

Well bob, as I said once before - if someone gives me access to it - happy to analyze it.

[Derby Tup]

Improved headtorch technology must have affected BG times (plus possibility of success?) in a good way

[Alan Lucker]

The other bonus of a midnight(ish) start is, if you pick time up time you can possibly miss 1 to 2 hours of darkness. Even if you don't most of the dark will be on the road which doesn't really matter. Starting at 7pm means you are definitely having a full night of dark, and most, if not all of it on the hills. I have done leg 2 at night in drizzle and fog, and although I know it really well, I found it a nightmare to navigate.

[Worm]

At the risk of opening up a whole other debate, this clockwise start time debate highlights why anti-clockwise is a good option. Start at 5am with a pretty reasonable night's sleep, Do most of leg 4 in reasonable light (at least to the Dodds). Blencathra in the dark uphill after 18+ hours no harder than in the light anyway. But no pubs open when you get back to Moot Hall.

[alwaysinjured]

At the risk of opening up a whole other debate, this clockwise start time debate highlights why anti-clockwise is a good option. Start at 5am with a pretty reasonable night's sleep, Do most of leg 4 in reasonable light (at least to the Dodds). Blencathra in the dark uphill after 18+ hours no harder than in the light anyway. But no pubs open when you get back to Moot Hall.

Whole different bag of worms! I think the ACW is harder by as much as 30 mins - the problem is there are a some brutal descents ( gable, yew barrow , scafell, hanging knotts, steel) where you don't get back in fast running what you put in on the ascents, there are also long raking ascents ( grey knotts to gable, pillar, mart crag moor etc) which are easy running CW , hard to see the equivalents going ACW: the usual descent of red pike for example, just is not as nice. There are also a couple of brutal ascents, like scafell, blencathra, all 3000 feet in one big pull, so harder on head.

[fellgazelle]

I generally agree with that, but I find Dunmail to Thelkeld, i.e leg 4 ACW much easier and quicker ACW then CW. Having said that I've never tried it after 3 legs of the BG.

[Derby Tup]

I generally agree with that, but I find Dunmail to Thelkeld, i.e leg 4 ACW much easier and quicker ACW then CW. Having said that I've never tried it after 3 legs of the BG.

Interesting point. If you run out from Threlkeld to Helvellyn or Dunmail and then back the return seems relatively easy. You just have to remember to turn your head the other way before Blencathra comes into sight

[Stolly]

I generally agree with that, but I find Dunmail to Thelkeld, i.e leg 4 ACW much easier and quicker ACW then CW. Having said that I've never tried it after 3 legs of the BG.

I've just checked bing maps and Dunmail is 50 or 60 meters higher than Threlkeld so, in theory, anti-clockwise should be an eeny wheeny bit easier. For sure descending Clough Head a/c is a heck of a lot more fun than descending Seat flipping Sandel c/w. That said what you might be 'slightly' overlooking is the back to back to back climbs of Seat Sandel, Fairfield and Dollywaggon straight off the bat where, some 2 hours after leaving Dunmail and having finally reached the boundary post on Dollywaggon, you find yourself having only really travelled a couple of miles or so . In fact those 3 climbs together probably make for the intencest block of climbing available on a BG, clockwise or anti.

The real problem with an a/c round though is leg 3 where all of the climbs are tough and none of the descents easy. The very very best thing about a c/w leg 3 is the fabulous descent to Wasdale from Scafell. Going up though is not nearly so 'fabulous'.

I'd agree with Mike that an a/c round is probably half an hour longer than a c/w one

[Bob]

One of the sections that I really wasn't looking forward to on my round was the Dollywagon-Fairfield-Seat Sandal bit, apart from the traverse around Grizedale Tarn (if you go that way) you are either climbing or descending. The other section was Scafell - Wasdale - Yewbarrow which on the day wasn't too bad.

[alwaysinjured]

One of the sections that I really wasn't looking forward to on my round was the Dollywagon-Fairfield-Seat Sandal bit, apart from the traverse around Grizedale Tarn (if you go that way) you are either climbing or descending. The other section was Scafell - Wasdale - Yewbarrow which on the day wasn't too bad.

As a supporter or nav, a place I have seen a lot of "ashen faces" is on red pike climb, which seems to be harder than people expect and endless particularly if bad weather, so they cannot measure it out in their heads . Once they are up there and particularly to pillar on time, the mood of the contender seems to brighten, and when on gable with something to spare, most get positive ,however knackered! So I reckon that climb to red pike is pretty crucial at least in mindset.

I think they put yewbarrow in the "not looking forward to" category, so in a way make the mistake of so thinking it will ease up, but it does not because red pike is similar in effort.

I cannot imagine what it is like mentally to be 30 mins down on a 24 schedule across leg 4/5 knowing it is doable (just) but only if you go quicker than you have done so far - when every fibre of your body is telling you to stop, not go quicker!! And hats off to the ones that keep going all the way to do 24.15 or 24.30 knowing they have not made it, but keeping it up anyway.