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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeze View Post
    Of course it wont stop immigration, no one said it would or should. But immigration is not the same thing as free movement. I think thats what people felt uncomfortable with.
    The problem is that the euroblock is too diverse at the moment. The difference between Denmark, Romania and Portugal is too extreme.
    I hope this might make the Grand Planners of the Euro experiment take stock and try a different tack.
    For example, rather than plan for convergence between very different countries, why not plan for convergence between sensible blocs of countries.
    e.g there could be a Northern Bloc, Southern and Eastern which, over time could be converged. EU convergence worked when it was 7 or 8 largely similar countries but the recent acquisitions has destabilized the whole thing. I think thats what the herd subconsciously felt.
    You see there is the problem

    You can’t provide one concrete positive but Mark Carney can provide one concrete negative

    Ergo – Brexit is a bad plan!!!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxinterior View Post
    You see there is the problem

    You can’t provide one concrete positive but Mark Carney can provide one concrete negative

    Ergo – Brexit is a bad plan!!!
    It's a bit like the point I previously made. Most people are ill equipped to think for themselves so follow the side they are most comfortable with.

    Interestingly he can only deal with events and has to be careful not to express an opinion.

    Having voted Brexit, one measure he is considering is lowering interest rates and just by mentioning this it has an effect as the market factors this in.

    Would he have considered increasing them if we had voted Remain? Would that have been viewed positive? Higher £ and great for holiday makers, great for importers, but not so great for exporters and mortgages.
    Richard Taylor
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxinterior View Post
    For me I just don't understand why people did it - I honestly don't

    I haven't heard one good reason why it is a good idea and the whole notion that it will stop immigration is I think false
    As Wheeze said, stopping immigration was never ever promised. Gove and Johnson both many times extolled the benefits of immigration. What was said was that it was impossible to control the level of immigration while being in the EU. Instead the Leave campaign advocated an Australian style points system.

    As for good reasons to leave, there were plenty made on the other Brexit thread. I'm not going to recite them all over again.

    Also we have a load of politicians that led us into this and have no conveniently walked away leaving the country to rot.
    What are you talking about? Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove and Liam Fox have all stood for leadership of the Tory party and therefore to be Prime Minister. This is a strange kind of walking away. Boris Johnson was all set to stand until Gove sabotaged his bid.

  4. #24
    Master Wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxinterior View Post
    You see there is the problem

    You can’t provide one concrete positive but Mark Carney can provide one concrete negative

    Ergo – Brexit is a bad plan!!!
    It was not my intention to provide you with a list of positives, just to have a calm discussion about how these things happen.
    But I am acutely aware that half of my kinfolk are up in arms. That needs to be managed.
    Its also true that a referendum taken today would have a different outcome, no doubt about it.
    Democracy is a powerful instrument and a referendum uniquely so.

    As for me, if the vote had been for remain, I would not have felt any different. I would have accepted the expressed will of the people knowing that a subsequent vote would have showed a reverse....that's the nature of the beast.
    Simon Blease
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  5. #25
    Master shaunaneto's Avatar
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    "It was not my intention to provide you with a list of positives, just to have a calm discussion about how these things happen."

    Perhaps you should provide a credible list of positives. Ones vouched for by none biased parties (foreign economic experts for example).

    The SNP managed to create the White Paper. Why didn't leave create an equivalent?

    I'll leave the credibility of the white paper for another discussion.
    pies

  6. #26
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    If I'm in Blackburn and want too go to Scarborough, I have options. Most likely I'd drive and go A59 but most would chose the M62.
    Use an "expert" SATNAV and it will give you the M62.

    If we all agreed we wanted to get to Scarborough from Blackburn, we may come up with many different options and some may not involve a car.

    But some of us aren't in Blackburn and some of us don't want to get to Scarborough.

    That's a way to sum up the whole debate about the EU and the UK.

    Some of us think the UK is in an OK position, some thing it's in a poor position, some want to break up the UK, others want to retain the Union.
    So our starting points are different.

    In terms of where we want the UK to be in 25 years, we also have different opinions.

    They are opinions, held for whatever reasons.

    So how can it be that all those different options for the UK must involve a one size fits all EU?

    We will never know whether to Leave is the best decision of the two choices we were given. Just like a career decision you made 20 years ago appears to have worked well, you never know that if you had chosen another option whether it would have worked out better or worse.

    So just roll with it and make the best of it.

    In terms of the SNP White Paper, The SNP has a party position - the Leave campaign was a group of individuals from different parties, businesses and organisations.
    They all had their reasons, some overlapping and some different.

    If there is any criticism on this it should be levelled at the Government.

    The Government deemed that the referendum was a reasonable exercise to undertake. Cameron has indicated in the past that he said it was a close judgement and only when he had gone through his negotiation process earlier this year did he come down firmly in the Remain camp.

    The Government should have set up a truly independent review setting out +/- case for Remain and for Leave and include the possible consequences.
    Possibly a select committee review would have been sensible.

    But Cameron rushed his negotiation.
    He didn't get what he set out to get.
    He was desperate (for some reason) to get the referendum in to 2016 rather than wait until 2017.

    He could have waited and tried to negotiate further.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  7. #27
    Master Wheeze's Avatar
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    Alright.
    Not my own work but culled from various sources.
    Border control back in our hands
    Membership fee saving
    Preservation of democracy and sovereignty
    Opening up of global markets
    Take full advantage of position as 5th largest global economy
    Preservation of military freedom
    Reduction of restrictive legislation on business
    Self determination of legal and financial management
    Reduction of internal security risks.
    Simon Blease
    Monmouth

  8. #28
    Master shaunaneto's Avatar
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    I literally asked for the benefits to be backed up by credible opinions.

    And what I get in return is some pish about the best way to the sea side!

    Being a disparate group is no excuse for not having a vision and strategy. I have one for my job, and I'd eventually be sacked if I operated without any idea of how to achieve my goals.

    If anything Leave should have a confusing array of strategies.

    Wheeze, it's a nice list. But it's just a wish list. Show me the road map!? And I don't believe the membership thing will be much of a saving in the end, either through market access costs or tariffs.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Alan Lucker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaunaneto View Post
    I literally asked for the benefits to be backed up by credible opinions.

    And what I get in return is some pish about the best way to the sea side!

    Being a disparate group is no excuse for not having a vision and strategy. I have one for my job, and I'd eventually be sacked if I operated without any idea of how to achieve my goals.

    If anything Leave should have a confusing array of strategies.

    Wheeze, it's a nice list. But it's just a wish list. Show me the road map!? And I don't believe the membership thing will be much of a saving in the end, either through market access costs or tariffs.
    The road map to the seaside?
    Why does he need to prove anything anyway? If the government don't produce, they get voted out. That's the new level of democracy we now have. No one else to blame now.
    Last edited by Alan Lucker; 06-07-2016 at 05:04 PM.

  10. #30
    Moderator noel's Avatar
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    In response to Wheeze's assertions:

    Alright.
    Not my own work but culled from various sources.
    Border control back in our hands I get this, but I don't think it will help. Incidentally immigration is higher from non-EU countries currently!
    Membership fee saving I get this, but think this will be more than off-set by economic losses and lost tax income as a result of leave.
    Preservation of democracy and sovereignty I get this and agree.
    Opening up of global markets Good luck with that.
    Take full advantage of position as 5th largest global economy Ditto
    Preservation of military freedom I get this, but don't agree we didn't have it anyway.
    Reduction of restrictive legislation on business I get this. However, from my perspective the EU was the workers friend and a helpful counter to the excesses of less progressive UK governments
    Self determination of legal and financial management From what I understand, legal is a separate issue, not directly related to our membership of the EU. I agree our financial markets could be unshackled by less restrictive UK governance. I'm not sure if this would be a good thing.
    Reduction of internal security risks. I get this and agree.

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