Fell Relays

[fozzy]

Was not there, but a wall being marked on a map does not mean it will be a structurally-intact wall that should never be climbed in any Fell race (and orientering race I guess). I assume it would be perfectly acceptable to cross a line of rubble that is the remains of a wall.

This is true. And why I would have used an O-map. You can easily distinguish between the two and also overprint in purple walls/fences that are definitely not to be crossed.

See here: http://www.aire.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#114 for a clear example. Ruined walls (ok to cross) are shown by the dashed wall symbol. Uncrossable walls are the continuous ones overprinted in purple.

It would remove all ambiguity.

(Plus it would be safer as crags would be shown more clearly and it would help the better navigators, because you can pick better lines).

Other examples:
http://www.aire.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#134
http://www.aire.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#133
http://www.aire.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#118
http://www.aire.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#113
http://www.aire.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#99
http://www.jk.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#64
http://www.pfo.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#83
http://www.pfo.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#47

[mykind]

[QUOTE=fozzy;636115]This is true. And why I would have used an O-map. You can easily distinguish between the two and also overprint in purple walls/fences that are definitely not to be crossed.

Yep but you do not have to use an O map. This year (and indeed every year) the Mountain Trial used the Harveys 1:40000 scale map and we were able to overprint uncrossable fences/walls and mark the crossing points in purple/magenta. However it must be said that we had reports of people crossing elsewhere so it isn't foolproof (fools are cleverer than that)

[Fellwalker]

The crossing points on this year's LDMT also had control boxes to punch so I assume those that did not punch were then DQ'd?

Another point worth considering is that whilst the runners taking part may be competent navigators, that does not mean they are experienced in orienteering and understand the symbols, typical rules etc. Especially when they are only handed the map after they have started running. Maybe in future a clearer set of instructions (possibly posted on a board in the change over area) with an example map for runners to read, showing what symbols to expect on the map what they mean might help?

Having said that the instructions I was given at this years LDMT were very clear and it seems people still didn't cross at the crossing points!

[Leeds Rhino]

on a lighter note, any photo's around. The photographer snapped me just as I fell over !! leg4

[gwynforjames]

on a lighter note, any photo's around. The photographer snapped me just as I fell over !! leg4

Hi, all pictures can be seen here:

http://www.sportpictures.cymru

[gwynforjames]

All pictures, well nearly, as no one knew about the navigation leg, are on:

http://www.sportpictures.cymru
FRA Relays - 1000-SPC_5071.jpg

[mykind]

[QUOTE=Fellwalker;636118]The crossing points on this year's LDMT also had control boxes to punch so I assume those that did not punch were then DQ'd?

Well that was the idea BUT (and this is the scary bit) so many competitors did not punch at the crossing points that we would have to dq about 20% of the field. Many said afterwards that they did not realise that they had to dib at the CPs. This despite this being clearly stated in the final details, despite there being an SI control box at eye level on each CP and despite a sign at each CP saying DO NOT FORGET TO DIB. The red mist of competition results in justifiable confusion as I imagine happened at the relays.

[fozzy]

The red mist of competition results in justifiable confusion as I imagine happened at the relays.

Not really - being clear headed enough to make sure you stay within the rules is part and parcel of competing, otherwise you could justify leg-breaking tackles in football (without red cards) and other such examples. What happens if two teams are running together into the finish funnel and one elbows the other such that they fall over and the elbower goes on to win?

If you were at an orienteering event and did not punch a control because you forgot, then you are disqualified- simple.

There has even been the odd case where an orienteer has punched a control, the electronic punch has not been recorded, and the competitor was still disqualified. This was particularly harsh in the case I'm thinking of since there was a photographer who actually took a photo of the dq'd competitor actually punching the control. This was at an interntational event. Despite a protest, the DQ stood I believe.

It's the competitor's responsibility to make sure they've punched the control and the punch has been registered!

[Graham Breeze]

Not really - being clear headed enough to make sure you stay within the rules is part and parcel of competing, otherwise you could justify leg-breaking tackles in football (without red cards) and other such examples. What happens if two teams are running together into the finish funnel and one elbows the other such that they fall over and the elbower goes on to win?

If you were at an orienteering event and did not punch a control because you forgot, then you are disqualified- simple.

There has even been the odd case where an orienteer has punched a control, the electronic punch has not been recorded, and the competitor was still disqualified. This was particularly harsh in the case I'm thinking of since there was a photographer who actually took a photo of the dq'd competitor actually punching the control. This was at an interntational event. Despite a protest, the DQ stood I believe.

It's the competitor's responsibility to make sure they've punched the control and the punch has been registered!

Well yes...but on the other hand compliance with rules isn't always about life or death - here it's just silly sport and so one needs a judge or referee to determine between the importance of maintaining the integrity of the rules vs a more realistic "what are we trying to achieve here in the context of a mere pastime?"

Now that judge might be a named independent referee or by default the RO. The latter is the poorer option because a RO is under all sorts of pressure to seek the "easy answer" by his own light with less regard for the fact that for races run under FRA Rules there is a requirement for the RO to comply because their decisions create precedents that undermine the desire of other ROs to uphold those rules. (Which is why FRA rules have to be acceptable to ROs, even more than to runners, because it is the ROs who have to implement and uphold the rules and "No ROs = no fell races").

In the case of the filmed non - puncher, well tough. The referee presumably believed that there was a rule to apply and be seen to have applied and that was more important than the feelings of the individual - but as I say that independent judgement is why the UKA relay has a referee to ensure "justice" is done within the context of the sport of a bunch of people running up and down some hills.

[Witton Park]

An idea that was posted on the Facebook thread would seem a good way to resolve this, which would be giving out the Nav leg maps in advance of the leg. This could be combined with a pre-Leg briefing, perhaps just after the start of leg 1.

It is possible that the current method of crossing the line and then receiving the map conflicts with some of the rules and the guidance for ROs and the above would remove any possibility of that and be fair, whilst still being a test of navigation skills.