Brexit

[Graham Breeze]

But Graham people were sick of the EU fleecing us to maintain an elite. They were also tired of people coming over here on the take. It's bad enough having a take, take , take attitude at home without spreading it to Europe as well. This country and Europe couldn't and can't go on like that. Subsidising the poorer members of the EU will inevitably draw our standing of living down - no question. That is the whole purpose of the EU: sacrifice of the richer nations to the poorer.

What the UK has to do now is to de-regulate as quickly as possible to make this place the best to do business. The chances of our government doing that are remote, but that is the best way of moving forward from this.

So what is foreign aid for? Apart from salving our colonial-past conscience?

I don't believe a country (or anything else) should be run based on anecdote and particularly those reported on behalf of our corrupt media barons living in tax-free havens.

I am a great believer in having the big battalions on your side: in shooting wars, in sport or trade and in economic terms Europe is a big battalion and plucky old UK "the best place to do business"? is not. Still, Austria manages to pootle along on tourism. It's not quite as great as the Austro-Hungarian Empire was - but it gets by.

[Wheeze]

The pig in the poke was Major and Maastricht. Until then the EEC had worked reasonably well.

Exactly. That is when a referendum was needed. That is when our membership of a 'common market' morphed into a road to political union. We should have been asked then but were not. The poison was buried only to bubble up later.

Delusion - an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument.

I do not think a desire to move away from increasing control by an unelected elite is idiosyncratic and certainly was not contradicted by reality. I voted for the fundamental pillar of democracy. The ability to vote in and vote out those in power.

[Muddy Retriever]

How about this:
we could argue for ever the good and bad of Brexit, without agreeing. Not that debating is a bad thing, on the contrary, but here my question:

Under what conditions would you allow EU citizens to reside in the UK, including "new" ones as well as those already there? Bear in mind 1) there are also UK citizens in the EU, and they will probably face the reciprocal fate, and 2) for a deal to be agreed, trade or not, it needs approval by all 27 parliaments.

I would allow EU citizens to reside here under very similar conditions as now. The only difference would be that they would be governed exclusively by British laws and courts. The European Court of Justice would no longer be the final arbiter. For UK citizens in the EU they should be governed by laws of the countries they reside in. They would be subject to the ultimate authority of the ECJ.

[Witton Park]

I would allow EU citizens to reside here under very similar conditions as now. The only difference would be that they would be governed exclusively by British laws and courts. The European Court of Justice would no longer be the final arbiter. For UK citizens in the EU they should be governed by laws of the countries they reside in. They would be subject to the ultimate authority of the ECJ.

I put together a draft manifesto before the last GE for discussion on FB. This was my contribution on Migration.

Migration
• Retain freedom of movement for EU nationals and extend it to the Commonwealth.
• Look to remove visa requirements for other countries where reasonable.
• Streamline the residency process so that once people are established here and want to remain, they can do so with a sensible and minimal level of bureaucracy. All should be able to apply for residency with a few minor caveats mainly linked to convictions.
Residency should be an option after 3 years.
A fast track system should be brought in for those already here.
• Free access to NHS emergency services.
• Other medical and welfare provision should not be available and should be covered by insurance until residency is confirmed.
• Employers who recruit employees from overseas must provide fully comprehensive health insurance for their overseas staff who do not carry it.
• Work towards similar arrangements for UK citizens travelling and working abroad.
• Strengthen the border force and security.

We should be more open not less. I think most people are fairly relaxed about immigration and a few simple measures such as set out above will alleviate general concerns that have been expressed in recent years.
If employers genuinely cannot recruit from the UK, the imposition of health insurance will add around 5% to the cost of employing a foreign national working full time on minimum wage and less for higher earners, subject to age and fitness.
These policies will not put up barriers but will reduce some of the pull factors.

[Gambatte]

I would allow EU citizens to reside here under very similar conditions as now. The only difference would be that they would be governed exclusively by British laws and courts. The European Court of Justice would no longer be the final arbiter. For UK citizens in the EU they should be governed by laws of the countries they reside in. They would be subject to the ultimate authority of the ECJ.

No bad. But it still opens a lot of headeaches.
Do they need a UK job to reside in the UK? Minimum income (which would almost certainly exclude workers in agriculture) and/or savings?
What benefits would EU citizens in the UK be entitled to. NHS? Child benefit? Pregnancy grant? Unemployment? State pension (of course, after paying NI contrib)?
Perhaps you don't know but as of now, EU citizens in the UK are entitled to pregnancy grant and child benefit, whereas citizens from non-EU contries are not (no, they don't get a discount when it comes to pay taxes).

What fees for Universities? RIght now French undergrads in UK universities pay the same fees as their English mates, 10k/yr or whatever. But students from outside the EU are asked much higher fees.
Undergrad students in universities here in Germany pay all the same fees no matter what country they comes from, few 100s/yr.

[DrPatrickBarry]

The European Court of Justice would no longer be the final arbiter....
They would be subject to the ultimate authority of the ECJ.

What does that mean?

[Muddy Retriever]

No bad. But it still opens a lot of headeaches.

They are all issues to be discussed and thrashed out but they are hardly insurmountable. I still don't understand the justification for your comment that EU citizens will be sent back.

The major sticking point at the moment is the EU's insistence that EU citizens living in Britain remain under the jurisdiction of the ECJ even after we have left the EU. To consider how unreasonable this is imagine if the USA insisted that all American citizens living in Germany should be subject to the US Supreme Court rather than Germany's courts.

This is just one example of the EU's unreasonableness and intransigence in the Brexit negotiations.

[Muddy Retriever]

What does that mean?

It means that British Law is supreme in the UK not EU law. The final court of appeal becomes the House of Lords.

[noel]

I hear on the news that some business leaders in Germany are now lobbying to allow UK to have an easier deal in the negotiations with the hope of keeping the UK in Europe. Apparently they think our withdrawal will have catastrophic effects for the EU.

If they'd have done this when Cameron said "we need a different deal or we'll leave", this may have worked. It's all a bit after the horse has bolted now.

[DrPatrickBarry]

It means that British Law is supreme in the UK not EU law. The final court of appeal becomes the House of Lords.

Would not think you will get very far with that idea with the EU.