Are we to assume that you didn't and don't vote then Geoff?Originally Posted by GeoffB
Are we to assume that you didn't and don't vote then Geoff?
No one has any excuse for not studying the possible implications of leaving the European Union, including the possibility of ending up with a remainer in power. Theresa May is attempting to stitch 'leavers' up with a Brexit in name only. She's a player and the essence of such is to set one against the other, whether it be friends, work colleagues etc. Then stand and watch whilst all hell breaks loose. Players can never be trusted.
I thought the European Union was acting on principle when they said you can't have as good a deal out as in. But since Trump's deal last week that seems to be false. It's about money.
Any chance we'll learn from his methods? I doubt it we're too weak and divided.
One of the skills of being a good negotiator is to appear inept - it disarms the other side.Others include never to reveal at what point you won't do a deal, don't negotiate in public, tell your own side only enough to keep them on board but no more than that, make the other side think they got a great deal and tell your own side the same, etc.
Sometimes I think Theresa May is smarter than many people think.
"...as dry as the Atacama desert".
But I don't understand how that applies to Mrs May. She's already agreed to hand over 40billion without anything in return. And now she has effectively told them at what point she won't do a deal with the Chequers 'take it or leave it' offer.
I thought the same about her at one point Graham. Was she about to pull a rabbit out of the hat. Then I decided that the rabbit was no way near the hat to be pulled out from.
There was a fella on Newsnight last night from a sandwich association panicking because he thought WTO rules would see key ingredients purchased from Spain and France delayed at the border.
But instead of appearing like a victim in a Peter Cushing horror movie why doesn't he contact his suppliers and get them to lobby/pressure their governments into giving both sides a free trade deal. I bet he hasn't done that.
There will be no rabbits.
Until the deal is signed everything is part of the game and every public utterance is just PR/posturing/bombast/bluff...
What only Mrs May knows is where her real "walk away - no deal" line is, faced with a pitifully weak negotiating hand and if observers knew what she really thinks she would be useless as a negotiator.
So let's hope she isn't .
"...as dry as the Atacama desert".
The problem is the Chequers plan the Government has presented to the EU is already a very bad deal and that's before it gets watered down even further in negotiation with the European Commission. It effectively keeps the UK under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and makes it extremely difficult if not impossible to sign trade deals with other countries. We are leaving the EU but in name only, effectively as a vassal state.
The Government has made a complete dog's dinner of the negotiations and I can't decide whether this is due to serial incompetence or because the politicians and officials involved never wanted to leave in the first place and therefore wanted to keep as much of the old arrangements as possible. We started with an excellent negotiating hand in the form of our budget contributions and our huge trade deficit with the EU but this has been thrown away. Mistakes include:
- Agreeing to pay £39 billion exit fee without getting a trade deal in return.
- Agreeing to the Irish backstop.
- Making next to no preparations for a no-deal scenario.
No wonder Trump thinks we are idiots.
The Government has acted under the delusion that it could give concessions to the European Commission and that they would reciprocate. But they were warned by the former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis what would happen from his own experience of trying to negotiate with them in 2015.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...at-theresa-may
I'm coming round to the view that the only way to save Brexit is to take the EEA (Norway) option as a half way staging post. This involves accepting many of the rules of the single market but we would be out of the Customs Union and CAP so could sign our own trade deals. It would require no agreement from the EU and would immediately take the £39 billion divorce bill off the table. At a stroke it would increase our negotiating strength and remove the ticking clock giving us time to negotiate a trade deal with the EU (Canada plus) for when we left the EEA. In the meantime the Government could make plans to adopt the WTO option if talks failed.
https://capx.co/the-norway-option-can-save-brexit/
In fact Varoufakis suggested this approach all along.
Yup. We spit in your face, undermine your entire structure and expect tea and scones after an amicable hand shake.
Incredible!
(And Boris Johnson should be hanged, drawn and quartered for high treason).
Last edited by Graham Breeze; 01-08-2018 at 09:12 AM.
"...as dry as the Atacama desert".
I don't follow your logic. The EU is quite happy to do trade deals with other countries that are not in the EU including Switzerland, which is right at its heart. If the EU is on a process of ever closer union with the view to creating a European federal state what sense does it make for us to go along with it? In fact the EU had a golden chance to keep the UK in if it had wanted to do so. It could have accepted that not all countries want to be so closely integrated and agreed to Cameron's modest proposals. Instead they sent him home with his tail between his legs. Had they compromised there is every chance the referendum result would have gone the other way.
What are people's views on the ECJ? I've heard people who are vehemently opposed to it, but I've not heard many of the details of why.
I note that even if the UK leaves the EU entirely, UK companies trading with the EU will still be under its jurisdiction (as the US company Google was recently).
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