Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 55

Thread: NHS in meltdown

  1. #41
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blackburn
    Posts
    8,786
    Quote Originally Posted by PiesAreGood View Post
    The head honcho directors of these companies usually just walk out of one job they failed at and into another directorship of another company. Jobs for the boys and all that...
    I would say that happens more in the Public Sector actually. Mandelson resigned twice as MP but got back in to Cabinet twice and then the EU Commission.
    On the Tory side, Chris Paton has had a few lucrative, dream jobs since his electorate kicked him out in 1992.
    I can also point to some NHS Executives, Directors of service etc that play musical chairs, despite questions over their achievements, or lack of.

    I have seen it in the private sector as well, but if I as a business owner, go and hire someone who has just closed a business, or been a key part of it, I am answerable for that decision.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  2. #42
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blackburn
    Posts
    8,786
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T View Post
    Nurses leaving in record numbers - unless you have seen it yourself, either as a patient or an NHS worker, it is difficult to understand how much pressure nurses can be under. It is understood that they will work beyond their hours, and not take the breaks they are due. The NHS would crumble even faster if they did not do this. Many cope, some cannot. The powers that be know all this, but choose not to act.
    Mike I started work in 1983 aged 18 and I worked as a "Trainee Manager" at a footwear firm in Rossendale.
    40 hours a week Monday-Friday with a 1:00pm finish on Friday.
    I started on £50pw.
    I was expected to work my share of over-time. The shop floor staff were paid by the hour or piecework. I wasn't.
    In 1988 I started work in Rochdale at another company and during that time was asked to attend some management meetings which often went on after work hours, and then started in a sales role, which often meant earlier starts, later finishes and over-night stays, all without additional pay.

    I don't want to go on, but it has been more or less the same all my working life. I have either been self-employed where I have worked for less per hour than my staff much of the time and at times put in 60 hour weeks.
    Between 2003 and 2009 I worked for a German company and that involved over 100 days per year in the Far East or mainland Europe, losing 6-8 weekends.
    I also visited customers around the UK starting sometimes before 6:00am and finishing after 8:00pm.


    I don't expect sympathy, or a pat on the back. But I do object to certain "virtuous" professions being paraded as something special

    Many of us do above and beyond what we need to do, in many jobs, in employment, self-employment and voluntary work.

    But in some of the jobs I have done, I might lose that job if I adopted 40 hour attitude. I doubt a nurse would be in that position.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  3. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    181
    WP, sorry I think I worded my post poorly. What I was trying to articulate, was that from my perspective, those who wield the real power in the UK and probably decide how well the country does, the "Establishment" if you will, seem to look after themselves. Yes they are in public sector and private sector positions. They seem to get these positions largely because of who they know rather than their capabilities, so when they fail, they just walk into another top position because their mates look after them ... and well ... you wouldn't want to have one of 'the masses' having a position of power would you?

    I've branched off topic, to bring it back to the NHS. I don't think it matters whether this large and powerful organisation would be public or private in the UK. It would likely be headed up by one of the Establishment and so it would in all likelihood flounder and be propped up by those working hard on the 'shop floor'. Until those in positions of power in this country (the UK) reach those positions based on their capabilities and not because of who they know, we will continue muddling along with those doing actual work beavering away to make up for the inadequacies of those at the top.

    I don't think it helps to have an argument about who is worst off public vs private sector workers. I'm not saying anyone is here. I just don't think it helps to say any one set of workers has it particularly bad. We all of us are having it bad at the moment, for my entire working life it has been a constant drive in the direction of do more, faster for less money. To the point where we barely have enough time to think/ensure that what we are doing is correct or as good as it could be. It has saddened me in the last year or so to see the media try to whip up an argument between two sets of workers and have them each blaming each other.
    I know many teachers and NHS workers and don't doubt that their lot is not a happy lot, long hours, stresses and low pay.
    Mind you I have only ever worked in the private sector and I have always been expected to work much longer hours than 40hr per week for no extra pay and at times my health has suffered because of the stresses placed upon me by work. I do count myself to have a 'good' job though, I shudder to think of working in a Sports Direct warehouse too afraid to take a day off work ill for fear of losing my job...

  4. #44
    Master molehill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Rhandirmwyn
    Posts
    4,109
    Reference to the large numbers of nurses leaving the job and low recruitment numbers. I haven't seen any reference to the possible effect of forthcoming Brexit.

    I wonder if some foreign nurses are leaving the UK and obviously low recruitment due to insecurity and not wishing to commit to a job here until stabilisation returns.

    Does this account for some of the figures but is being overlooked in favour of the "NHS in collapse" headlines?

  5. #45
    Master Muddy Retriever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Muddy puddle at Temple Newsam
    Posts
    2,285
    One of the claims made by some remainers is that the NHS is particularly dependent on EU workers. In fact the reverse is true. EEA nationals (the EU plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) make up 5% of the NHS' workforce. If you take the labour market as a whole EEA nationals make up 7.3%. So the NHS is actually less dependent on EU nationals than the wider economy.

    It is more accurate to say that the NHS is reliant on people from the rest of the world in proportion to their number in the total workforce.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40753751

    And as I said in a previous post, the number of EU nationals working in the NHS has increased, not decreased since the Brexit vote. So claims of a Brexodus are nonsense.
    Last edited by Muddy Retriever; 17-01-2018 at 06:01 PM.

  6. #46
    Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Ambleside
    Posts
    5,471
    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    Mike I started work in 1983 aged 18 and I worked as a "Trainee Manager" at a footwear firm in Rossendale.
    40 hours a week Monday-Friday with a 1:00pm finish on Friday.
    I started on £50pw.
    I was expected to work my share of over-time. The shop floor staff were paid by the hour or piecework. I wasn't.
    In 1988 I started work in Rochdale at another company and during that time was asked to attend some management meetings which often went on after work hours, and then started in a sales role, which often meant earlier starts, later finishes and over-night stays, all without additional pay.

    I don't want to go on, but it has been more or less the same all my working life. I have either been self-employed where I have worked for less per hour than my staff much of the time and at times put in 60 hour weeks.
    Between 2003 and 2009 I worked for a German company and that involved over 100 days per year in the Far East or mainland Europe, losing 6-8 weekends.
    I also visited customers around the UK starting sometimes before 6:00am and finishing after 8:00pm.


    I don't expect sympathy, or a pat on the back. But I do object to certain "virtuous" professions being paraded as something special

    Many of us do above and beyond what we need to do, in many jobs, in employment, self-employment and voluntary work.

    But in some of the jobs I have done, I might lose that job if I adopted 40 hour attitude. I doubt a nurse would be in that position.
    I do not claim for one second that other people do not work hard, but as a nurse, if you get it wrong/cut corners/always leave "on time", people can deteriorate or even die, and then, despite the staffing shortages/patients in corridors, the NHS/relatives come down on you like a ton of bricks - only a tiny number of such cases are publicised. No fun; once this has happened a few times, or even just nearly happened, unless you are made of pretty stern stuff, you are a wreck psychologically and looking for work elsewhere.

  7. #47
    Master molehill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Rhandirmwyn
    Posts
    4,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever View Post
    And as I said in a previous post, the number of EU nationals working in the NHS has increased, not decreased since the Brexit vote. So claims of a Brexodus are nonsense.
    So are you saying that the UK staff are leaving whilst the EU + other countries nursing staff are increasing in numbers?
    Or are the leaving nursing staff proportionally the same from UK and EU+other countries, but recruitment now more from outside UK citizens?

    Just interested if there is a difference between nationalities of who stays, who quits and who joins the NHS and of course why.

  8. #48
    Master Muddy Retriever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Muddy puddle at Temple Newsam
    Posts
    2,285
    Quote Originally Posted by molehill View Post
    So are you saying that the UK staff are leaving whilst the EU + other countries nursing staff are increasing in numbers?
    I'm saying that there were more EU nationals working in the NHS one year after the Brexit vote thus disproving the claim that there has been a Brexodus. Scroll to the bottom of the page for the numbers.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/...bers-going-up/

    But my point was also that the NHS is not dependent on EU workers. The figures from the BBC article I linked disproves the claim by some Remainers that it is.

  9. #49
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,879
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T View Post
    Nurses leaving in record numbers - unless you have seen it yourself, either as a patient or an NHS worker, it is difficult to understand how much pressure nurses can be under. It is understood that they will work beyond their hours, and not take the breaks they are due. The NHS would crumble even faster if they did not do this. Many cope, some cannot. The powers that be know all this, but choose not to act.
    Ambulance workers as well. Dealing with poorly people regularly drains the spirit. I can understand in some how this pressure can destroy one's compassion.

  10. #50
    Master Muddy Retriever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Muddy puddle at Temple Newsam
    Posts
    2,285
    Quote Originally Posted by PiesAreGood View Post
    I don't think it helps to have an argument about who is worst off public vs private sector workers.
    I don't think it is a case of arguing who is better or worse between public and private sector workers, people are people wherever they work. But I would argue that private sector organisations will generally be more efficient and productive than public sector ones. That is not meant to denigrate public sector workers and managers, it is just that the private sector has a natural mechanism to make this happen that doesn't exist in the public sector. It is the profit motive and survival.

    The Carillion collapse is a good example. It's managers have made poor decisions and the company has paid the ultimate penalty. When private sector companies go under, they are replaced by better ones. That is why it is correct for the government not to bail Carillion out. Had it been a state owned company, mistakes would just have been covered up, losses continued to accumulate and the Government would have kept throwing in more good money after bad. This is exactly what happened in this country in the 1970's with all the nationalised industries.

    I appreciate that there are certain services that need to be managed by the state but to extend this to wider industry as seems to be becoming a popular view, would be total madness.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •