Blizzard Jackets

[No Whistle]

Ta Ian, v. comprehensive (as usual!).

The Gore garment is similar to Buffalo in that you're meant to wear it next to the skin so relying on the layer of moisture to provide some insulation. Does what it says on the, errm, tin...

Nonsense, water doesn't provide insulation, a layer of air does.

[jodg]

Ah! I stand corrected!

[stumpy]

Nonsense, water doesn't provide insulation, a layer of air does.

Not entirely nonsense, though water is a much, much better conductor for heat loss than air. A Buffalo works in a similar way to neoprene if it becomes saturated - it traps a layer of body temperature moisture next to the skin to prevent significant heat being transferred away through the material...

[jodg]

Ah! I stand corrected again! Or should that be re-corrected?

[No Whistle]

Not entirely nonsense, though water is a much, much better conductor for heat loss than air. A Buffalo works in a similar way to neoprene if it becomes saturated - it traps a layer of body temperature moisture next to the skin to prevent significant heat being transferred away through the material...

I can see where this misinformation is coming from, the neoprene story is a commonly repeated myth, neoprene as used in wetsuits is a closed cell foam, the air in the closed cells of the neoprene rubber provides the insulation, the layer of water next to the skin is trapped and warms up, the water itself does not provide the insulation, many of us windsurfers/dinghy sailors now use "drysuits" made of the same material, they are warmer still as an additional layer of air not water provides yet more insulation.

You have to think further, what is it that is keeping this "layer of body temperature moisture" next to the skin warm, it's the next layer of air (that is still air in neoprene bubbles or buffalo fleece), this applies to a buffalo and a wetsuit, it's very basic science, very sorry to be so pedantic I can't help it.

And to get even more complicated we'd have to consider factoring in latent heat losses from any evaporating water, bringing in issues relating to wicking properties and windproofing and breathability, very interesting field fabric technology, the upshot is always going to be that you'll be warmer without any water anywhere near your skin

[steve456]

Unless the specs have changed and I'm sure they won't have Gore windstopper is not waterproof! Sorry jan

Actually iirc, it kind of is; gore windstopper uses a PTFE (I think) membrane (just like normal goretex) to stop the wind and that's why it's so sweaty compared to normal fleece. They don't seal the seams/have hoods/have water repellent outers though so they aren't sold as waterproof.

[stumpy]

I can see where this misinformation is coming from, the neoprene story is a commonly repeated myth, neoprene as used in wetsuits is a closed cell foam, the air in the closed cells of the neoprene rubber provides the insulation, the layer of water next to the skin is trapped and warms up, the water itself does not provide the insulation, many of us windsurfers/dinghy sailors now use "drysuits" made of the same material, they are warmer still as an additional layer of air not water provides yet more insulation.

You have to think further, what is it that is keeping this "layer of body temperature moisture" next to the skin warm, it's the next layer of air (that is still air in neoprene bubbles or buffalo fleece), this applies to a buffalo and a wetsuit, it's very basic science, very sorry to be so pedantic I can't help it.

And to get even more complicated we'd have to consider factoring in latent heat losses from any evaporating water, bringing in issues relating to wicking properties and windproofing and breathability, very interesting field fabric technology, the upshot is always going to be that you'll be warmer without any water anywhere near your skin

I didn't say the water layer in neoprene was insulating - I said "it traps a layer of body temperature moisture next to the skin" - as you say, it is the air in the Buffalo pile or neoprene that then stops the transfer of heat to the atmosphere.

If you want to be pedantic (it is my middle name too!) its not this layer of air that is keeping the moisture layer warm - its your body heat - as a poor conductor the air is just limiting the transfer of heat to the outside.

You are right about the latent heat effect of course and it is best to keep try - trouble is for a lot of us sweaty buggers Buffalos do actually keep us drier!

[fellboy]

i dont tend to wear waterproofs running in any weather, but i have to agree with bladerunner. i have cycled everyday to work all winter and wear endura waterproofs made from event fabric. it is the best lightwieght waterproof breathable cloathing i have ever worn. while running i find wearing skins compression wear keeps me comfortable enough.

[IanDarkpeak]

Actually iirc, it kind of is; gore windstopper uses a PTFE (I think) membrane (just like normal goretex) to stop the wind and that's why it's so sweaty compared to normal fleece. They don't seal the seams/have hoods/have water repellent outers though so they aren't sold as waterproof.

PTFE stands for (not sure of the exact spelling) Poly Tetra Fluro Ethylene or to give it it's common every day name Teflon as in non stick pans and artificial tendons and ligiments and other medical items.

They have sealed the seams in my fleece but this I believe is to make the seam stronger rather than waterproof. It shouldn't make you sweat any more as you will still sweat the same amount. It depends on how quickly it can move this away from your body.

Most technical fleeces come with some form of DWR now (Durable Water repelency) which make the fleece water resistant when clean this is true for most waterproof garments also. a dirty garment will attract and hold on to water often called wetting out. This shouldn't effect the breathability of the garment but will make it heavy and uncomfortable to wear and in strong wind will cause heat loss due to evaporation.

Re Buffalo or any generic pile/pertex garment, these work more efficiently if they are a snug fit as the friction creates more heat so they are warmer and can transfer moisture away from the body quicker. Idealy for best results Buffalo should be worn next to the skin and not over a base layer but who does that!

In my younger days when I was in outdoor retailing I had been to the Buffalo factory and met Hamish the guy behind the idea. One of the early problems that they had with reproofing was that people were using a wash-in reproofing for the garments which meant they were effectively waterproofing the wicking layer rendering it inefficient when what was needed was a spray on reproofing (not silicon).

Sorry for any bad spelling but I'm on my second bottle of wine, JJ would be proud Perhaps I should go on to 'today wine'

[XRunner]

Here is an interesting article for climbers:

The Art of Not Suffering