Pendle Cloughs Fell Race

[Witton Park]

So, in summary, its one of the following then?
A) Back of a fag packet management
B) Telepathic interpretation of what members think / might think
C) Sound reasoning and reasonable outcome from guidance given to RO back in Oct 13
D) Pointless Point Scoring
Or maybe any of above depending on context?

A and D pal

If it was to be C, then there would not be any listings at all of races that were not FRA registered. GB has acknowledged in his post above that members "do not really distinguish" which begs the question why list them as many of the members will not identify the difference.

[OB1]

A and D pal

If it was to be C, then there would not be any listings at all of races that were not FRA registered. GB has acknowledged in his post above that members "do not really distinguish" which begs the question why list them as many of the members will not identify the difference.

Your logic, WP, seems to be based on sound reasoning, as does Sam's logic in his previous two posts. I am struggling to see what is 'moot' about such logic (as GB puts it) in the traditional meaning of the English phrase 'moot point' (open to debate), and I struggle even to see how the Americanised meaning (not worthy of debate/discussion) might apply. The 'discrimination' is clearly not a moot point to many members in either sense of the phrase, and clearly not to the relevant RO either.

[alwaysinjured]

Sam,

It's a moot point. However removal from the online Calendar does prompt the question "I wonder why PC isn't listed?" whereas we know that many members do not really distinguish between (FRA) and a blank space. We have not used "R" this year and the fact that some members have not even noticed rather proves this point.

We also need to be mindful of what the police and a Coroner might think.

Graham

Perhaps you need to be more mindful of what members think - since that is what you are appointed to do. Ask them what they think of such petty behaviour:
-When all that was needed was a simple request to the organiser Andy to note on his entry form (which he clearly would do anyway) whose rules and insurance were being followed is all you needed to do, and would have solved it to everyone's satisfaction.

But To the wider problem: You asked them to sign up knowing that what was on the table at the time of signing was inadequate / wrong and/or ridiculous (no hazards still there at the time!!) , despite you having had months and numerous requests from me to put it right, You were saying "trust us to put it to your satisfaction" by the new year . Then you punish the ones like Andy who took you at your word back then, but you failed to put it right to his satisfaction at least, so you instead you punish that race - instead of the amicable settlement easily possible as mentioned in my first para.

So Grow up - there was no justification to leave Pendle Cloughs out. As for the police, ask Keith Burns, as their representative who is better versed in that than you are , despite your attempts to marginalize him.

In any event Wynn was clearly not accepting FRA position even from the go, she was having none of it, because she will never sign anything sight unseen, (nor should anyone else) yet still you left her out of the book : and off the website - so leaving off books and websites is clearly vindictive, nothing else, so spare us the hindsight blather.

You are well aware that Wynns procedures are better than most, as one of the first to do complete kit checks. So safer than most of your races, way ahead of you in terms of proper planning. Clearly worth listing (and listening to) if you act in the interests of fell runners generally, instead you leave her out as personal retribution for rocking the boat - then justify it with blather.

[Fellhound]

At the moment, a very small number of English races have declined registration with the FRA because of the amateurish way the FRA has approached the issue of safety, and the high handed way it tries to lay down the law to race organisers (or ‘bludgeon them into submission’, to use a committee member’s own phrase).

Of these, I have first-hand experience of two, having helped with the organisation of them - the Pendle Cloughs and the Annivesary Waltz/Teenager With Altitude – and I can say quite clearly that these are among the best-organised fell-races races you will find anywhere. Both their race organisers plan their events thoroughly, consider foreseeable risks and address them, and make sure the whole team have clear instructions on what is expected of them. They write this into a plan which is available for anyone to view, so that the thoroughness of their arrangements are clear and transparent to any interested party, and they do this in a way that allows runners to enter and run without being aware of the work going on behind the scenes, as far as possible. Most entrants in the Pendle Cloughs would have found it a simple low-key traditional fell race – the kind we all love.

So let’s immediately nip in the bud the fallacious suggestion that such races are not registered with the FRA because they can’t (or don’t want to) meet some ‘higher’ standard. They have declined registration with the FRA because they want to manage the safety of their events in a better, more responsive way, rather than jumping through stupid, pointless and dangerous hoops, avoiding tripwires laid for them by the organisation that is supposed to be there to help them!

If it becomes widespread that other races de-register and begin to organise their races along the lines of those above, organisers under the FRA will find it very difficult to show that the safety of their races is not deficient due to lack of planning. No amount of one size fits all rules will be able to prevent that from happening. It will be the FRA races that, quite rightly, will be seen as the lower standard.
The future of fell and hill running is seen at Pendle Cloughs, Anni Waltz and, soon, at Wheeze’s Steam Bunny Bluff. It really is time the FRA woke up and smelt the coffee!

[MargC]

Sam,

It's a moot point. However removal from the online Calendar does prompt the question "I wonder why PC isn't listed?" whereas we know that many members do not really distinguish between (FRA) and a blank space. We have not used "R" this year and the fact that some members have not even noticed rather proves this point.

We also need to be mindful of what the police and a Coroner might think.

Graham

Graham,

I note that in the FRA printed Calendar (FRA) has replaced (R) as you mention, I assume in an attempt to further stress that such events obtain their Permit and associated UKA insurance from the FRA. However this change is not reflected in the online Calendar which still uses (R) to denote an FRA race eg http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/races.php?id=3115

Margaret

[OB1]

Yes, it (the discrepancy/inconsistency you highlight) would be farcically funny if it wasn't so seriously important.
Anyway, another opportunity for a FRA Committee response to be made up on the hoof.....

[Fordonian]

Just been looking at the results and splits for the race and irrespective of the politics just wanted to say what a great race it was and thanks to Barlick for putting it on, thoroughly enjoyed it. It was well organised, had a good atmosphere and well.....what a course, even with some of my route choices! Made a mess of my leg on the last wall before the final few fields though it's down to me that, must learn you can't run through walls. I'll be back next year and hopefully round it quicker. Hope to see more runners on it next time too, it certainly deserves it.

[studmarks]

Yes, it (the discrepancy/inconsistency you highlight) would be farcically funny if it wasn't so seriously important.
Anyway, another opportunity for a FRA Committee response to be made up on the hoof.....

The following is on the FRA Website under FRA / Organisers section.
I rest my case.

Organisers

The FRA maintains a Calendar of fell/hill/mountain running events throughout the UK. Where details of an event for the following year are received by the end of October they are included in the annual Fixtures Calendar and Handbook which is received by all members of the FRA. When race organisers are agreeable, details of events are also displayed on the FRA website. Information about late registered events is included in the Calendar Update section of the Fellrunner magazine.

For a new event to be included in the FRA Calendar it must comply with the FRA’s definitions for a fell race. These are given in the FRA Rules for Competition and include the minimum amount of climb required, the maximum amount of the event which can be on road and a requirement for it to include some “genuine fell terrain”.

For events taking place in England (including the Isle of Man) the FRA, which is affiliated to UK Athletics, can provide race Permits and associated UK Athletics insurance. There isn’t any charge for a Permit but Organisers must be members of the FRA. A membership application form can be found on http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/join-the-fra.php

Events outside England should obtain their Permits and/or insurance from the relevant national bodies. Details of such events, and any in England which obtain insurance other than through the FRA, can also be included in the Calendar.

Organisers of new events should contact me by email on [email protected] explaining where their event is to be held and including their phone number. I will then send the relevant form for them to complete to submit race details. If you are applying for a Permit for a race in England I shall also require a copy of an OS map showing the race route. This is for FRA records and to check that the route meets the FRA’s requirements for a fell race. For events outside England I may request some route information after I receive the completed form.

Once a race has been included in the FRA Calendar the organiser will automatically be contacted at the end of September inviting him to submit race details for the following year’s Calendar.

Documents of importance/interest to race organisers have been included on this page. If you have any queries please contact me by email or phone.

Andy Butler
FRA Fixtures Secretary

Tel: 01663 733256
Email: [email protected]

[studmarks]

Could all runners attending the race please use the Village Hall Car Park. Co-operation in this matter will maintain the good will which has been established over the years and keep the impact of the race on the village and surroundings to a minimum and thus help secure the future of the event. A small charge of £1 per car payable at Registration will be made with all proceeds going towards the up keep of the Village Hall.

[multi coloured]

Has anybody got a course map link ?