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Thread: Ingleborough Junior Champs

  1. #1
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    Ingleborough Junior Champs

    Ingelborough Junior Championship Races
    Saturday 19th July 2008

    U8s starts at 1.30pm
    U10, U12, U14 will follow as each races is completed.
    Senior Race starts at 3.00pm
    U16s and U18s start at 3.10pm

    Registration will open around 12.30pm.

    There are prizes for the first 3 Juniors in each category.

    The races are held as part of the Ingleton Gala, so there should be lots of other things going on.

    I am trying to find out courses and lengths etc. and will post again if I manage.
    Last edited by Lecky; 03-07-2008 at 11:02 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: Ingleborough Junior Champs

    Just to start things off gently - a tad poor today (and that may well be an understatement)

  3. #3
    Master Harry H Howgill's Avatar
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    Re: Ingleborough Junior Champs

    Quote Originally Posted by Clash City Rocker View Post
    Just to start things off gently - a tad poor today (and that may well be an understatement)
    I'm sorry to hear that your financial situation isn't as rosy as you would like.
    Fitness can't be stored. It must be earned over and over, indefinitely.

  4. #4
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: Ingleborough Junior Champs

    I have to say I think CCR has it right and is being quite diplomatic.

    I didn't arrive until the U10 race was coming in, but having seen that race finish, and the U12 & U14 races, I have to say that they would be best described as Junior Fun Runs on routes that were not even acceptable for that.
    Even the exit through a small gate after 50 metres running should have failed a risk assessment.
    The U16's at least had some climb, but not much Fell.

    It's a great venue on paper, Ingleton Gala, Ingleborough overlooking, but it is clear that the Gala is too far from the Fell to give the younger age groups a suitable race.

    The feedback from the U8/U10/U12 athletes that came from Blackburn Harriers, and their parents surrounded the poor quality of course and the apparent chaos in terms of organisation and information.

    Four races in to the series, there hasn't really been one race yet that has been that great in terms of course - I would exempt AW FRA1 as the wind was the main problem.

    I am sure nobody wants to throw much criticism but feedback is necessary, good or bad.

  5. #5

    Re: Ingleborough Junior Champs

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry H Howgill View Post
    I'm sorry to hear that your financial situation isn't as rosy as you would like.
    Thanks for your concern its looking up a bit as I found a £5 in the pub car park.

    I was as I know you know referring to the junior race situation which did disappoint me greatly I take on board the comments about there not having been a great course as yet as well. I was expecting a set of cracking routes today given the setting yet this was bot to be. Surely a 5 min walk to the edge of Ingleton would have been ok and wouldnt have detracted from the gala which may well have been top priority for the organisers but was of secondary importance for competitors and support. It would have least have allowed the races to climb up more than the odd kerb.
    Whilst it clearly fell short of a fell race it was at least equal for everyone Lets hope Bradbourne and Viking Chase have something exciting to offer. Whilst the idea of a 6 race series in 6 counties at least shares out the distance to travel it may well be better sticking to some tried and tested routes and venues for the future. I would be interested to hear what the runners thought or at least the repeatable comments.

  6. #6
    Master karen nash's Avatar
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    Re: Ingleborough Junior Champs

    Sadly it put my son off and back to running with adults where nobody makes him do such a silly course and back to orienteering.
    He was U14 and thought his course was awful. He knows and accpets they are often much shorter than he would like but thought the other problems were unforgiveable- the girls next to him nearly lost her arm on the gate at the top of the first incline, he couldn't overtake on about 3/4 of the course due to narrow paths, narrow flag stones with bogs on both sides ( he tried) and it was FLAT.
    I know it is mean to whinge - but if we say nothing it will be the same next year.

  7. #7
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: Ingleborough Junior Champs

    Hi Karen,

    Don't let him be put off. Maybe you could look at putting some junior races attached to Paddy's Pole or Chipping. The Parlick area would be ideal for junior fell, and you could bid for a race next year perhaps.

  8. #8
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    Re: Ingleborough Junior Champs

    It's hard to know how to reply to this. I too was unhappy with the courses and the flagging of the races.

    As I understand things, the organisers had been persuaded to put on a set of championship races for this year. Having done this, they then tried to make the best of what they could do in the circumstances.

    The U14 race was supposed to follow the route of the senior race, and would have had 450ft of climb. Why this was changed on the day I do not know. But I would assume that there were concerns regarding running 12 year-olds up the road.

    It almost never occurs to fell race organisers to walk people to the start of races, unlike orienteering, where it is very common. I can only really think of one that I have done where this happens, and that is the Long Duddon race. However, even if that had happened there are complaints about the U16 race, which ran out the same route as the seniors. To get onto proper fell from that comment, the race would have to have started nearly 2 miles along the track.

    This year there have been a number of new races, and these have had teething problems. There is a tendency to make the courses easier, rather than harder "just in case" - a tendency that I fully understand, but would hope to change next year.

    I don't count the Arnison Crag Uphill race in being too easy. I haven't heard any complaints about that one. I also felt that Stacksteads was pretty good, given that it ran from a Lancashire Valley. The organiser at Shutlingsloe has accepted the feedback about the courses and would make them a bit harder next year. Some of the routes were affected by the decision to use this as a Selection race.

    My feeling is that the championship races should be just that. Tough races on a variety of fell terrains. Races in the Lakes are different to those in Yorkshire or Lancashire or Derbyshire. They all have different characteristics and are all fell races. I am very keen to increase participation in fell running, but am not sure that making championship races easier is the way to do this, that being a complaint below.

    What to do about next year?

    Let me know - I will be choosing the races for next year, unless someone would like that particular challenge. I haven't been to many junior races, any advice would be welcome.

    I would also welcome views on what makes a really good junior race.

  9. #9

    Re: Ingleborough Junior Champs

    Lecky and other interested readers. Its time to hold my hand up as the person who organised the races this year as I feel that the comment about being "persuaded" to hold the races needs some sort of qualification or countering from my perspective. Somehow and I am not quite sure how I ended up with the task of trying to pull together the 6 race series and I should say I was happy to do this. My intention was to try to spread the races out a bit and as runners only need to complete 4 I thought that it would help with travel etc if people could pick races that were easier to get to. Its a eco friendly sport after all, and with being spread across 6 counties (I think for the first time but I am happy to be corrected on that) I thought that the races would give a spread of terrain and conditions etc thereby providing something for everyone although I hadnt intended road runners to be included in that.
    I spoke with a number of race organisers some of which were dead keen and others who were unsure about the magnitude of the organisational task. Some others would have liked too but didnt feel their race was testing enough or a proper fell race etc and so didnt want to be included. I was careful to explain what was needed in terms of age cats. and distances etc and that races all needed to be run separately. I do not recall the specific conversation but I am certain that Ingleborough was included voluntarily.
    It is a hard task to organise the races as the other consideration is that they should be spread across the Apr - Sept period to try to ensure better weather. just going back to the same races is easy but ultimately boring I am not knocking the Wrekin race but I think as an example of going back year after year it had been in the previous 3 years. There are some great races that dont fall inside the Apr to Sept period which would be great to include but not practical.
    Having not visited that many junior races previously I did have to trust to luck somewhat and can only apologise to any runners who have been put of or have felt that the 08 series has not been challenging enough. I am totally for making the races as tough as they can be whilst sticking within clear guidelines and doing the best we can to ensure safety whilst still having something for everyone; the climbers the descenders the out and out fast runners and the all rounders.
    On that note I would be happy for the Coiners Fell Race to be selected as a junior race next year and believe that it would provide testing enough routes. And we walk people to the start as well.
    Hope that essay helps to shed some light on this and at least it will have put the other side of the "persuaded" argument

  10. #10
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    Re: Ingleborough Junior Champs

    I think you answered that reasonably well.....you kept your cool, which may have been difficult as it's never easy to take on a job especially as a volunteer and then have people criticise your efforts.

    We have only been to two junior races this year, the Wa and Ingleborough, the Wa was great I thought, some decent climbing and some nice downhill, plus the organisers gave each finisher a drink and I believe some sweets of some sort.

    Ingleborough.......umm, the starter did not know when the races were due to start, then there was the narrow gate, the slippery steeping stones with gaps between them that could easily have put paid to an ankle or two, vitually no climbing so virtually no downhill, a road crossing where traffic still seemed to be flowing, and no drinks (not even water) at the finish.

    We have to thank the organisers for being brave enough to take on the challenge of running junior championship races and if it's in next year we will be back hoping of course that they have taken on board the comments that have been made.

    For us it was a three hour journey (150 miles) thankfully we stayed overnight and ran at Hawkswick, now that was a fell race!

    Keep going Lecky, perhaps next year though keep in some of the classics, good luck

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