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Thread: Fellsman

  1. #1781
    Grandmaster IanDarkpeak's Avatar
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    Re: Fellsman

    only way it would ever happen is if the course was marked and I can't see that happening. so stayed group, RO's rules, not really up for discussion.

  2. #1782
    Master Stolly's Avatar
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    Re: Fellsman

    Quote Originally Posted by plodding bear View Post
    You'd hope so, Stolly! But I think the organisers would - rightly - be VERY nervous about runners/walkers who don't know the area wandering about over Fleet Moss and so on in bad weather, in the dark, on their own. So, I think the grouping rule will be staying.
    Yeah I'm sure it will be staying, don't get me wrong. All the same Fleet Moss is crossed in daylight by many runners and, by that time of the day, the field is spread out. I was largely on my own for over half of it this time. From a navigational point of view if you get in trouble its relatively easy to get off, just head south. Equally Buckden Pike and Great Whernside can be got off pretty quickly by heading west. And if you are on your own and do feel in trouble, you are far more likely to take that sensible option. As a group though you might be encouraged to continue, especially as the group need you to keep with them to avoid disqualification themselves.

  3. #1783
    Master plodding bear's Avatar
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    Re: Fellsman

    You're assuming everyone can navigate - I know they are supposed to be able to, I suspect there's plenty that can't though. Also, those escape routes you have pointed out require a rational mind to make that decision, then find some help somewhere else, then get in touch with the organizers to let them know what you've done...
    Yes you're right, but not all who find themselves in trouble will arrive at those decisions. A group can be a pain in the arse, but it's safer for all concerned; in the event of an accident it means someone can stay with a casualty whilst two others go off to get help.
    Maybe anyone wanting to go solo could sign a disclaimer of some sort, but I can't see it happening.

  4. #1784
    Master Stolly's Avatar
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    Re: Fellsman

    Quote Originally Posted by plodding bear View Post
    You're assuming everyone can navigate - I know they are supposed to be able to, I suspect there's plenty that can't though. Also, those escape routes you have pointed out require a rational mind to make that decision, then find some help somewhere else, then get in touch with the organizers to let them know what you've done...
    Yes you're right, but not all who find themselves in trouble will arrive at those decisions. A group can be a pain in the arse, but it's safer for all concerned; in the event of an accident it means someone can stay with a casualty whilst two others go off to get help.
    Yep all valid points. And all points that could equally apply in poor daytime weather. Maybe all fell races should be done in groups (okay I'm definitely joking now).

    To be honest both of my fellsman experiences grouped up have been excellent, although for one we had to wait 45 minutes to get our fourth team member and I got seriously cold in that time. In the same event (2009) I also purposely kept quiet about a slightly knacked ankle which I knew would slow me down - I mean who wants to group up with someone who is bound to be slower?

    My bad grouping experiences have all been in the High Peak Marathon which, on the face of it, should never really have them at all as you should be running in a team of friends. I though have never able to get in as a team of friends and have always been a last minute sub in a hodge podge team. I've been in one team where a couple of the members clearly disliked each other, another where I was a 200 to 400 meter behind tag along Charlie (in deep snow and poor visibility) and yet another where all three of my team members were completely and utterly unfit and I knew I was in for a shambles DNF right from the start. Grouping can create as well as solve problems is I guess the main point I'm making.

    Anyway thats enough of that. With or without grouping the Fellsman is a truly brilliant event
    Last edited by Stolly; 04-05-2012 at 04:06 PM.

  5. #1785
    Master plodding bear's Avatar
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    Re: Fellsman

    It certainly is, I think I'll be having a crack again next year!
    I had some truly horrendous grouping experiences one year, too; what with having to backtrack to Fleet Moss, and then pick up new members, some of whom had already said they were only going as far as Hell's Gap (slowly), it took about five hours to get across!

  6. #1786

    Re: Fellsman

    Stolly's suggestions raise the question how one should distinguish between 'runners' and 'walkers'? The only sensible metric seems to be expected finishing time (EFT) and hence the current system already implements selective grouping of 'walkers', i.e., people who are expected to take longer then some set time (n.b., I'm not saying that only people who didn't get grouped are runners, I'm saying that the current system produces a split into two sets of entrants based on their expected finishing time, call them what you will). Hence maybe the more interesting question is what time should grouping commence? With 7:30 groupings (at Cray & Park Rash) people with an EFT of about 12hrs30 would make it through. 7pm groupings would mean only people sub 12hrs would be ungrouped (<5 in general). My opinion is that the current times are too early, in particular the 7pm grouping for this year (although I understand that grouping wasn't enforced till 8pm at Park Rash leading to a people with EFT ~13hrs getting through). With pretty light conditions till about 10pm (=13hrs) I think a more reasonable EFT boundary would be 14hrs, meaning grouping at Park Rash at about 9pm, Cray 7:30 (n.b. these are estimates based on a handful of rough leg times I know, one should look through the records of the CPs and come up with better estimates of how Cray/Park Rash times relate to EFT)
    Overall I'm not against grouping - in fact, I think it is a good idea in general - however I feel that changing the grouping times could improve the event, making it more of a race the whole way for a larger proportion of the field. Obviously there will be people who will treat it as a race rather then a challenge who will be taking longer, but well one has to set a boundary somewhere and as I say overall I'm in favour of grouping, it's just with the faster people covering the Rark Rash - finish section in <2hrs grouping at 7pm seems overly cautious. One could also go to the other extreme and ensure everyone gets grouped, however that raises the question where to group the front runners, unless the start time were to be moved...
    On the racing vs. challenge theme, I also feel that a better system for 'time allowed' once grouping has commenced could be put in place, in particular should the early grouping times remain, as this again allows a larger portion of the field to have a race if that's what they want.

    Just my thoughts. In general I think that everyone involved in putting the Fellsman on is doing a fantastic job, I'm very grateful they do, I once again had a great time and am already looking forward to next year (whatever the grouping times might be ).

  7. #1787
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    Re: Fellsman

    Whilst I agree that there are good arguments for not grouping people and for everyone being self-reliant and not relying on others to navigate, I think that it is important to remember that The Fellsman isn't actually a fell race. I know that many of us want to do it as fast as possible (can't believe that I'm saying that when last week I didn't know if I would even be able to complete it ) and obviously there are elite runners taking part too but ultimately, the event is run for hikers and runners and is just that, an event. There are so many races available to do for all of us, perhaps we should just accept The Fellsman for the brilliant challenge that it is rather than trying to change it to suit us runners more?
    'The birds are the keepers of our secrets'

  8. #1788
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    Re: Fellsman

    I think that last post sums it it up perfectly. I've read many sensible posts on this thread, and some not so sensible, but I think Hes has hit the nail on the head.
    Bravo.

  9. #1789
    Senior Member AlanB's Avatar
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    Re: Fellsman

    Well put Hes. I see all of the thoughts Stolly is simply "suggesting" but you've hit the nail on the head. The Fellsman IS different. There's plenty of other races to race on. An earlier start time might work, but might make Satday morning rushed for the organisers I guess.

  10. #1790
    Master plodding bear's Avatar
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    Re: Fellsman

    Maybe a later grouping would work, though? After all, there's nowt to stop people grouping voluntarily before then, should they wish.

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