Navigation for fell running ?

[IanDarkpeak]

Thats what I have been doing wrong. Holding the map in me hand.

I should have been putting the map on the floor and standing in it. Thanks IanDP

if you get a map on a 1:1 scale it works really well, try it...

[IanDarkpeak]

I always always have the map orientated. It's the way I was taught in the Army and on my ML training. Can't see why you would have it any other way for fell running.

Because if you're in a situation where the terrain is dense on features (paths, boundaries, streams, contour variations etc) it takes extra time to mentally rotate the map, time you need to be watching your feet. It's less of a problem in open featureless moorland (e.g Kinder) but get somewhere full of walls and paths and you can soon be in a mess. In these situations a compass is rarely used (you'd spend most of your time setting bearings instead of looking where you're going) so orienting the map to north is a pointless exercise.

Don't hold the Army/ML up as an example, they're training for a significantly different situation, one where pinpoint accuracy, possibly in bad weather is much more important than speed. High speed navigation when running is often more akin to 'stepping stones' as you use all the features available to 'jump' your way across the map.

Don't dismiss it; try it next time you doing an orienteering/MM event, see if it works.

it might be me but aren't we talking about the same thing?

Map is orienteered to the land so it is pointing north. if we turn left 90 degrees, map stays still and we move round to the right side of the map and face it and start running..... maps stays orienteered and we have moved round it...? I think we are saying the same thing but using different words?

[IainR]

I quite like using a thumb compass at some more events, when you can just quickly keep the map orientated to north and go off rough bearings.

It's all about choosing the right level of fuzziness for the occassion..there are times when a few minutes of fine nav, just forgetting about the race, makes sense and is worth it. On the HPM there are a few sections we'll walk slowly and try to get it spot on, whereas others you can run a bit more blindly if you know there is a catchment feature which you can handrail you into your next point.

[shaunaneto]

map, compass, tssk cheating surely

[gej]

it might be me but aren't we talking about the same thing?

Map is orienteered to the land so it is pointing north. if we turn left 90 degrees, map stays still and we move round to the right side of the map and face it and start running..... maps stays orienteered and we have moved round it...? I think we are saying the same thing but using different words?

Yes Ian, I think everyone is saying the same thing. As far as I can see, no-one is advocating the alternative, which might be summed up as 'always hold the map so the writing is the right way up'. To return to the original question, I do most of my running on my own, but most of my walking with the family, so I am more careful with the nav when walking as there are others to complain when I get it wrong.

[andy k]

Its called racing.... of course you don't know where you are all the time in a race in bad conditions. You gamble, you make calls, educated guesses. Well I do. In awful conditions and not knowing the terrain that technique took me to third at the road in Jura Fell race (Alasdair Anthony got me on the road). Also won the Peris in very poor vis..

You plan ahead, you visualise you see if things fit, if they don't see what else you can see, sometimes just hold your nerve, trust your judgement.

Of course getting lost isn't failed navigation, not finding out where you are again is failed nav, what a rediculous notion that one can't make errors. That's how it is on your ML assessment too (by the way)..how many teams say they navigate succesfully around the HPM? How many of them do it without going wrong at alll...our team makes the odd mistake and our navigator probably knows Bleaklow better than any man alive..

Too many runners are too scared of getting lost and pushing the boundaries of their nav so don't progress.

Note I also said unsure too... so you get on a ridge descend down until the memory becomes patchy, you've past most of your ticks, you look at the map and see what's around you to make sure the next call is the right one...

Racing is about racing, positions and times. It's not for safe slow runs. That's what I do the other 300 days of the year.

That sounds more like it

To me your post implied "run and hope "
which would not be good advoce to a race navigation novice, as the OP appears to be.

I still maintain that getting lost is a failure of navigation
I'd define navigation as the process of finding your way via an unknown route
If you are in a race this needs to be done as quickly as possible.
If you make an error, get lost and lose time then you have failed to go as fast as possible.

Agreed you can be unsure and not knowing where you are is not the same as being lost.
Being lost starts when the not knowing where you are begins to lose you time.

In a race I aim to make no errors - to lose no time through error/failed navigation.
safe is not slow
perfect is not slow
You may scoff at the idea of no errors but any top orienteer aspires to this, they will analyse their navigation and log any time loss as an error/failure
and not in terms of a minute or 30 seconds
Frenchman Thierry Gueogiou inroduced the concept of "total orienteering" taking the errors down to a single second
If he could have done it one second faster then its an error.
Gueorgiou is 2011 World Champion in 3 out of the 4 disciplines (he did not contest the 4th)
This is partly down to this absolute perfectionist approach.

Too many runners are too scared of getting lost and pushing the boundaries of their nav so don't progress.

Geourgiou has taken this to the limit - no errors
time to push your boundaries ?

(sorry that was cheeky, I know )

[Brotherton Lad]

Interesting point about orienteering.

Often, I find no need to navigate in a fell race, I just follow the crowd. Sometimes the map stays in the bum bag all the way round.

In orienteering, however, it's a full time business staying on top of the nav. In the inevitable post mortem, I'll always find a string of errors where I've lost time. This means I've had very few orienteering experiences that I could describe as entirely happy and satisfactory. Fell running, though, tends to be more enjoyable.

[IanDarkpeak]

Interesting point about orienteering.

Often, I find no need to navigate in a fell race, I just follow the crowd. Sometimes the map stays in the bum bag all the way round.

In orienteering, however, it's a full time business staying on top of the nav. In the inevitable post mortem, I'll always find a string of errors where I've lost time. This means I've had very few orienteering experiences that I could describe as entirely happy and satisfactory. Fell running, though, tends to be more enjoyable.

) so you enjoy it more when you don't know where you are.

[andy k]

blissfull ignorance, I think they call it

[Brotherton Lad]

) so you enjoy it more when you don't know where you are.

Not exactly, me ol' flower. I always study the map for several hours before a race, often in conjunction with Google Earth to see the trods, and I have a pile of race notes from an old mucker. In some cases, I'll recce difficult parts of a course if I'm in the area. All that comes in useful in bad vis, but if the weather is fine, there's little need to navigate in a race. Local knowledge is more important.

In orienteering, there's much more need for full on navigation.