50@50 - the extra 8 peaks??

[Duncan R]

I'm planning on doing a 50 round this summer & have been reflecting upon the extra 8 peaks to add to the classic 42. I did the BG 25 yrs ago & am very conscious of, & sensitive to, the history, tradition & spirit of the club. So. I would be very interested to hear the thoughts & opinions of members of this august body on;
* which peaks would best reflect the spirit of the round?
* should there be 'guidelines' or recommendations, like for the winter round?
* Does it really matter?

I have an opinion but would welcome the thoughts of the forum before I commit to a fairly significant (for me) day out!

Thanks
Duncan

[FellShoeShuffler]

You should really do the "Ed Hill 50 at 50" because it was the first one in 1977. I believe and may be able to confirm subsequently that it includes Causay Pike to Whiteless Pike without Grasmoor to add 6 of the 8. I should be able to identify the other two if no one else can.

More recently there has been a tendency to add any 8 peaks so long as the round doesn't become too difficult but on that basis any 42 would do for a "Bob Graham" and few would accept that.

[Bob]

I've listed the tops visited by some of the successful 50 @ 50 contenders at http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/run/bgr_ext.htm

It sounds like those taken by Eddy Hill are the same as the next three contenders (Don Talbot, Tom Sykes and Peter Parkin) namely: Whitless Pike; Wandhope; Eel Crag; Sail; Scar Crags; Causey Pike; Scoat Fell and Pavey Ark.

I like the idea of including tops from the Grassmoor group, it seems to make the round more complete. To my knowledge there's no commonly accepted criteria for the extra tops in the same way that to beat the 24hr record the contender must visit the tops of the existing record and add some more, or for the tops themselves to be explicitly defined in any way. Note that Wakefield specified the tops should be over 2000ft when he succeeded on his round way back in 1904, the BGR itself fails on that count - Steel Fell and Calf Crag fail to attain that height.

I'd take Ed Hill's original eight but replace Scoat Fell with Allen Crags.

As for recent rounds visiting "less worthy" tops - I crossed several of these on my basic BG but they didn't count!

How about the following criteria:

The basic 42 tops of the BG (despite some of these not meeting the following requirements)
At least 2000ft in height
Is a chapter in one of Wainwright's guides
Has 250ft of ascent on all sides.

The last one may invalidate pretty well every top used so far

Interesting ...

[ydt]

There is no standardisation as far as extended BGs go. Just about every 50@50 has used different extras.
The Whiteless Pike - Causey Pike group makes an excellent lot of extras but apart from Crag Hill all the others have very small reascents. Of course the massive climb to Whiteless Pike (clockwise) more than compensates for that. The two additional extras could be from: Lonscale Fell, Skiddaw Little Man, Hart Crag, Great Rigg, Allen Crags.
Following the comments above, I would think that Pevey Ark and Loft Crag (which I and many others have included) are not that good. As far as Scoat Fell goes, I think it constitutes an anomaly and should not be included in any extended round.
Yiannis

[FellShoeShuffler]

[QUOTE=ydt;202164]There is no standardisation as far as extended BGs go. Just about every 50@50 has used different extras./QUOTE]

Not strictly true. The early 50@50s used the same route on the basis that the first one established the route. Later 50@50s started to use other summits and the result now is that it is perfectly possible to add 8 summits and barely leave the BG route.

George Brass & Paul Murray did the same anti-clockwise 55@55 route although the clockwise version used different summits.

In some ways it is a pity, since Bob Graham was extending Eustace Thomas's record, it didn't become "Bob Graham" for 42 at any age, "Ed Hill" at 50, "George Brass" at 55 and, of course, "YTD" at 60.

[Bob]

Mike Sadula's site has the following comment about the 50 @ 50 schedule presented there ( http://www.bobgrahamround.co.uk/50peaks.htm ):

This is a clockwise route of the 50 peaks which our club members use.
The extra peaks are;
LEG 1 Lonscale Fell./ Skiddaw Little Man. LEG 2. Hart Crag./ Great Rigg Man .
LEG 3. Pavey Ark./ Loft Crag./ Allen Crags. LEG 4. Scoat Fell.

A quick bit of internet research would indicate that "our club members" refers to at least Dennis Lucas and himself but I've no confirmation either way that these are the extra tops they visited.

I know Yiannis did Hart Crag and Greatrigg Man on his round but to me they feel more like outliers, they don't sit easily on a "round".

Making the assumption that Dennis Lucas and Mike Sadula added the above tops and that Eddy Hill's extra tops are those used by Don Talbot and Tom Sykes then the only tops visited by every successful 50 @ 50 contender are Pavey Ark and Scoat Fell.

The problem is of course the extra work that any sufficiently independent top adds to the round. It's a balancing act. I've looked at various combinations of tops (I was considering a 50 @ 50 myself but my knees aren't too keen at the moment) and each has its own merits and downsides. I can see the attraction of having extra tops in each section - you are ticking them off quicker rather than saving them up for one big hit, but this doesn't feel like extending the round, just modifying it.

Since this is about lists, here's another one:

Lonscale Fell
Skiddaw Little Man
Bannerdale Crags
Allen Crags
Scar Crags
Crag Hill
Hopegill Head
Grisedale Pike

[MorganW]

I'm really glad that Duncan has started this thread.

I have been chatting with him about the lack of criteria and the choice of extra peaks.

So please coninue the debate, because I would like to have the subject debated at the next BG committee meeting later this year.

The number of enquiries are increasing and it would be good to be able to provide some definitive guidance. No doubt this wouldn't suit everyone!

The criteria for extra peaks for the 24 Hour Fell Record went through various permutations between 1971 and 1989 and perhaps the time is right, without affecting the achievements of those rounds already completed, for some clarity.

Morgan

[Bob]

Here's a quick test: If you were in a car park about to set off running and a group of walkers asked where you were heading, would they recognise the name of the top you gave?

Looking at some of the "tops" on the various lists, even as someone who grew up in the Lakes and have walked on the fells for nearly forty years, I have to get a map out to find where they are.

No list of criteria is going to please everyone - it's always going to be a compromise.

[ydt]

I'm really glad that Duncan has started this thread.

I have been chatting with him about the lack of criteria and the choice of extra peaks.

So please coninue the debate, because I would like to have the subject debated at the next BG committee meeting later this year.

The number of enquiries are increasing and it would be good to be able to provide some definitive guidance. No doubt this wouldn't suit everyone!

The criteria for extra peaks for the 24 Hour Fell Record went through various permutations between 1971 and 1989 and perhaps the time is right, without affecting the achievements of those rounds already completed, for some clarity.

Morgan

Good, let's have a definitive BG plan. And, please sort Scoat Fell out.
I might have to attempt another extension, to comply with the committee's decision on approved extras. Better start training.
Yiannis

[Al Fowler]

I know pretty much nothing about the groud, terrain etc etc between fell to fell on the BG route but even so, i got a map ok of the lakes last night and spent five minutes trying to link the 42 peaks together.

Heres my extra 8 - tell me to shut up if they are completely inaccessible or unrealistic.

Longscale Fell
Green Side
Allen Crag
Scoat Fell
Lingmell
Crag Hill
Grasmoor
and i needed one more so i chose Great Rigg?