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Here's a question for all the outdoor industry types on the forum;
If I were to take people out on a walk, who were part of a group paying for a holiday, but had neither paid directly for the guiding, nor booked me as a qualified ML and I hadn't advertised myself as such, would I be susceptible to legal issues if someone turned an ankle/got injured in someway?
Its a bit tricky I'd say, They've paid some one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed D
May be you haven't given enough information here, but if you put yourself forward as a leader(no requirement for ML or WGL etc)you would have some responsibility for the group, Not being paid? do you represent the company that the walkers have paid money to? are you insured through them?
Do you have any responsibilities to the group or are they expecting you to have responsibilities?
So many variables.
If it's just a group of mates you take walking then probably not.
Certainly if money changes hands you will have. Give me a call tonight if you want to chat about it and make it more clearer.
will pm mobile
PS I'm not a lawyer so I have no responsibilities for these comments...;)
In this hypothetical scenario, a group has paid a company that I work for/run for a weekend away. The group wants to go for a walk, and I take them. Can I 'join them on a walk' without being an official ML or similar? I.e. can I be taking them out as I would a group of friends or has the money changing hands muddied the waters? My instincts tell me yes, and that there is no way the walk could be advertised on an itinerary without it being construed as a structured or 'official' activity in which case I think there would be a reasonable assumption that the person guiding the group would be qualified.
Thanks for the offer Ian but don't trouble yourself, just thought I'd try and put it out there to see if my suspicions were correct.
Ed
There's no requirement for a walk leader to be qualified at any level but with out a "Best Practice" guidelines or proof of experience(logbook) you'll not get any insurance.
Can you join them I'd say yes, but because you are part of the company I'd agree it muddies the waters...are you representing the company?
Yes I would be. Probably best to look at quals!
Its a grey area.. there are no formal requirements to be qualified.. but that also depends on your insurance which can be quite vague.. mine was 'qualified to nationally recognised requirements' or something like that..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed D
Look at the LiFR courses.. considered sufficient yet for hiking its 5 times as much time and money to get qualified..
But if anything on the adverts suggest a walk is being organised, possibly inferring guided you'd struggle if something went wrong.
If nothing goes wrong then there is no issue of course.
You are in a position of authority if you are leading the weekend and would have a duty of care.
Look at the WGL qualification, outside of mountainous areas it may cover what you need or just employ an ML, for an easy days walking it would cost you less than £100, you'd probably pick someone up for around £80.
Presumably a similar situation that went wrong: Man charged with health and safety breaches over death of Swiss woman
[QUOTE=IainR;598005just employ an ML, for an easy days walking it would cost you less than £100, you'd probably pick someone up for around £80.[/QUOTE]
Disagree here Iain, to get a good professional ML to guide a walk should cost you more than £100, You might get a newly qualified one but for some one with lots of experience...
Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant it's a days pay. It's Different discussion for a different forum certainly but who would you want to look after your kids on a hill in bad weather? the lowest paid instructor you could find??? I'd ask my self why does he charge so little? because no one else will employ him?
Fully agree with you IanDarkpeak that a good professional ML will likely need, and deserve, to earn £100+ for a day's work. But also agree with IainR that there may well be experienced ML people happy, in some circumstances, to work for less. Add to this a constant influx of younger, newly-qualified people and it's easy to see how this is not a get-rich-quick profession!
I think you're right, Ed D, to be cautious about the hypothetical situation you describe. I have some limited experience of the legal aspects and, as already stated in this thread, it is indeed a grey area. What is certain is that cases of litigation are increasing year-on-year. A possible scenario is that the group you describe might reasonably regard themselves as "being led", and that a duty of care could exist. It's complex - really good insurance from specialists in this field is needed, backed up by sound procedures and best practice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
In North Wales £100 would get you plenty of experience at the ML level.. That's what the business would pay to subcontract out jobs and there was shortage of offers for work.
But I'd say the ML market in North Wales is in surplus so prices are probably lower than the peak.