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I've had my eye on Sedbergh Hills. A perusal of the net to try to source some route info took me to this: http://www.racemaps.org.uk/sedbergh/sedbergh.htm.
Thanks. But the author's tale made me think; is it common now that folk are using GPS to navigate? Is this within the rules, or spirit, of our noble pastime? Is navigation a dying art, a skill destined to extinction?
i've been out on Dartmoor when the rain and fog have been so heavy that the GPS had no signal. Navigation will always be vital.
I will continue to fly the flag!
Cairngorm MRT was called out four times last w/e by or for people who were relying on iphones for nav. GPS is a convenient extra (and I really like being able to quickly upload a route once I'm back home and have a record of where I've been etc. similar to how it's used on the racemaps website) but it's no substitute for proper nav. skills.
We have a Garmin GPS but I've never used it! I'm generally a technophobe. Tho my Garmin watch has grid references etc once I look at the instructions.
I've spent far more time than is good for me reading forum threads, race reports etc in the last couple of weeks to find out more about various ultras. One thing that has really struck me is how many people who freely admit to being unable to navigate nevertheless enter events where nav skills and self reliance are required and may be key to safety. Many are much better runners than me and some will be displaying false modesty but even so - to enter the Fellsman, UTLD 100 and such like with no nav skills? Crazy, potentially dangerous and unfair to the RO and to the other competitors you will be relying on IMHO. Last year on the LDMT I kept bumping in to a very nice rather poshly spoken chap who made his way round by repeatedly asking anybody and everybody where he was on the map, what way they were going to the next CP, can i join you etc - I mean, why choose the Mountain Trial of all things when you know you can't read a map? I'm not some po faced traditionalist, indeed have often been accused of not taking things seriously enough myself, but it seems very wrong that this attitude is so common and apparently regarded as acceptable by many people and something to be boasted of and joked about in race reports. Or maybe I'm becoming a grumpy old git :angry:;)
P
I kind of like getting lost in the hills and then successfully unlosing myself. Thats a real navigation art :). On the plus side, going off beam is a fantastic way to get to know an area and be much better prepared for next time whereas these highfalutin 'get your map out and navigate properly-er's never nearly have so much fun or get to see so much as me ;)
Ahh, Stolly. The ability to relocate must be one the key skill of navigation.
I'm always surprised by the number of walkers I meet who are heavily reliant on GPS for navving in the hills. Even on crystal clear days!
And still find themselves on Robinson while they insist they are on Catbells, because that is what the Satnav tells them :-O
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
Just before the Borrowdale fell race I happened to compare my compass (which was pointing north as you might expect) to Hester's which had the red arrow firmly pointing south! She was somewhat sceptical that her compass was wrong and compared it to Gavin's, another runner nearby. Gavin's compass too was pointing south! But both of their (micky mouse) compasses were absolutely wrong.
Never mind GPS, don't always trust your compass :)
GPS gadgets should be discarded as soon as possible in your fell running career, and preferably thrown in the nearest lake, mere, water or down the nearest shakehole. They will never be a suitable substitute for a map and a compass, and the popularity of all this expensive peripheral junk will give rise to the belief that they actually are. There seems to be this crazy technological race where companies are competing to reinvent the wheel with batteries and bluetooth, a race that the budding fell runner should steer well clear of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo
I always thought you had to give proof of experience (previous MMs or long fell races) to get into the LDMT?
Yes, this can happen, either due to rubbish compasses or local geology. This is where having both map and compass skills are important, as given a clear day, you should be able to relocate using the map only. In the clag, of course, it's different - a working compass is essential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
According to the FRA navigation course that I went on, you also shouldn't trust your compass if you are wearing an underwired bra...Mr.Navigator, did I dream that bit or was it actually really said? Re Borrowdale, you've got to admit that two compasses pointing south is quite unusual but evidence that you shouldn't trust anything. I remember the day Stolly and I were doing a recce of Langdale Horseshoe and he was able to demonstrate his relocation skills when we discovered that were actually on Glaramara :thumbup:
No GPS for me thank you, I am still trying to get the hang of a compass and map.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Quite an expensive Silva compass Fozzy, I think they are quite a reputable make. I believe that you can muck up the magnetism by putting it next to your mobile phone? That's what I was told by some 'experts' on the start line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy
It is entirely possible for runners to get round these sorts of races without navigation skills - you could do a MM with a partner who does all the navigation and the vast majority fellrunners get round most races without a recce, simply by following the runner in front.Quote:
Originally Posted by Epocian
I suspect far too many fellrunners have little to no navigational skills. After starting orienteering, I am now aware of how poor my navigational skills were. They are getting better through practise, but there is still along way to go...
You certainly can, any strong magnetic force can do such a thingQuote:
Originally Posted by Hes
Give orienteering a try - definitely sharpens your navigational skills - in particular knowing where you are at any point in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hes
I'd be surprised, but it's possible I guess. I'd need to do the Maths to be sure (and remind myself of the relevant equations) - but I don't have the time or energy at presentQuote:
Originally Posted by Hes
As per my other post, I'd be surprised if the EM field generated by a mobile would be strong enough, but without doing the maths, I have to concede that it is possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
My initial rational is that if the EM field from a mobile was sufficiently strong to much up a compass, why doesn't it wipe your credit card etc when they are in close proximity in your pocket?
My old compass points south - but I did buy it in South Africa! I got used to this quirk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
I once attempted a recce of the Duddon race, on the climb upto Little Stand (i think!) the weather went mental, blizzard, zero visibility. For some reason i did nt have my compass but had my garmin on, so i thought id use it to find my way back to the road or start point.....i did nt work the blumin' needle just kept spinning. A similar thing happened on a recce of kentmere, i ended up doing 16 miles, visited Hayeswater and did nt get further than high street!!
I ve since enhanced my skills, learnt to remember my compass and not rely on race maps. It was an experience though, funny, but not at the time!
The Garmin 610, if you use the back to start facility, sends you back the way you came. I suspect if you press it several times on route it will contradict itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by sol
Very true - this is a known issue regardless of quality!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
the last FRA course I was instructong on one guy was really struggleing to use his compass...I tried his compass and also struggled. it took me a couple of miutes to realise the steel whistle attachjed to it was messy up his compass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hes
amongst other things. it is possible to re polariseit with a strong magnet or silva will do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
map and compass are king gps are good fun as a back up. but they take the skill out of our sport.
It's got nothing to do with the quality of the compass - if it's consistently pointing in exactly the wrong direction then it's been de/re-polarised. Probably by contact with a magnet or similar. I had this happen when I put my Blackerry (which has a magnet in the case) next to my compass in a bag. It's easy to reverse - just stroke a magnet along the length of the needle repeatedly to reverse it.Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy
Geology has a toally different effect - the needle may be out, but not by 180 degrees usually, and the effect will alter as you move over different rock types.
God knows I don't want to be controversial but...
I do agree with almost all of this thread, but also gaining experience can be quite tricky I guess. I started running in North York Moors races (where zero real navigation is required for the most part!). The next thing I did was Yorkshire Dales races like Ingleborough, Pen-y-Ghent areas where I had very little experience. Although I made sure I carried kit, map etc and I'd practised a bit I hadn't used any skills in anger. Lakes races followed such as Langdale, Grisedale and Three Shires. I'd guess I still hadn't used my kit for real, and had little real experience in the Lakes ( a little walking at most). But I wanted to race, and I wanted to gain experience. Thats how it went on...gaining experience, carrying kit but really never having the need to use it. The first time I really recall using it was Helvelyn race, predictably I got 'lost', although not as lost as some I ended up with. I did find my way back on line but had to retire. I guess I had used navigation a little during other walks I recall Fairfield was one occasion. But I guess what I'm saying is how do you gain experience in using the skills you may have aquired. I guess I've still used my compass on a relatively few occasions, some quiet hairy, but I'm pretty sure I can get myself out of trouble.
Bit long winded, sorry!!
It also happens when a group of runners stick their compasses next to each others to see which is right; they'll all try to point towards each other!Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy
I think GPS watches are brilliant; I've been using my Forerunner for over 4 years now, both for getting an idea of how far I've gone and also for planning long runs as part of my Fellsman training.
It was extremely useful to be able to plan a 20-30 mile run in advance on a completely new area, just by drawing lines on Google Earth; took about 15-20 mins at most. Out on the run I could concentrate on following rather than finding my way and could maintain a much better pace. The 'return to start' feature is also very useful if you just want to run for a set distance; just press the button at halfway and it'll guide you home. Chances are you'll recognise most of it anyway.
I'd agree that compass and map skills are invaluable; gps devices are of little use in MM and other nav events when you get a map on the day. It would have been no use on the Fellsman 'cos the batteries don't last that long anyway!
But; don't knock gps devices if you haven't tried them (and I bet most of you haven't) they can be a very useful addition to your training.
Probably also worth mentioning that I've also seen a compass get depolarised by one of those magetic things people use to attach a camelbak tube to their chest strap (a stupid invention if ever there was one). The magnet wasn't strong, and all it took was a short period of the compass hanging around their neck.
Worht being aware of.
I remember a few years ago being at the top of mickledore from wasdale about to turn up to the left to scafell pike summit when a couple of chaps stopped me to confirm where they were, they were convinced scafell pike was up to the right and were using a GPS, even though I had never been up there before and the clag was down, I'd practiced map and compass skills on my own, reading books and on valley walks in good conditions so felt confident up in the fells. The other day I was on a family day out to roseberry topping, a beautiful clear day and was amazed whilst we were at the top a guy asked us which was the way back, back to where? I asked him, he didn't have a clue where he had come from, which path or anything, astounding.
Anyway, I digress, I do have a Garmin forerunner I use and I do have a garmin etrex gps to plan runs and then follow it in an area I've not run in before, but always have a map and compass as back up, just cos it's easier to follow a gps without stopping all the time to check a map, but I agree nothing comes close to knowing how to use a map and compass (although tell that to my husband when i was arguing with him at the top of carn mor dearg in the clag that our silva compass was totally wrong, but it was me that was wrong)
Also happened on that nav course I was on with you? Brand new compass with north and south reversed.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Give me a GPS any day :sneaky:
But not always fun in races such as Gt Lakes!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Haha good point. My problem though with the great lakes was that I went off the race map and couldn't then use it to get back on track. On the plus side I explored a whole new area of ground and now know it all much better for next time. What with races like langdale, borrowdale and the great lakes plus BGR recces and attempts I'm now getting to properly know big swathes of the lake district. I like to think that I know 500 square miles of the Dales left, front and sideways and at long last I'm getting to know the lakes too. Its fantastic to know somewhere that welll such that you could relatively easily get by without a map and compass :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Beany
Garmins are great - I use mine all the time and hate running without it. As you say, it's great for getting an idea on how far you've gone, and also afterwards for the vast wealth of data you can glean and analyse - particularly being able to export it to google earth (or similar) and work out where you went wrong or took poor lines etc....Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyA
However, I would never use it to navigate - much better to rely on map and compass. A clubmate of mine tried to do a Borrowdale reccie a few years ago partially in the clag by following the trace on his Garmin FR305, using his route from the race the year before (where he took a good route). The route took him to a crag apparently way off line. The situation was saved/resolved by another clubmate getting a map and a compass out.
Orienteering is great for teaching you navigational skills. As I've said before, it very quickly teaches you to learn where you are at any point in time (which is not as simple as it sounds)Quote:
Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy
A-ha!! Or was it just a cunning ploy to remove said garment??!! :w00t::w00t:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hes
i have used me garmin forerunner 401 for navigation but like some have said after a few hours it dies due to lack of power! one of the best ways that i have found to learn how to navigate is to be dropped off in an area you don't know and work your way back to a designated mark... e.g. wherever the other half left the car.
In recent years my navigation has greatly improved even more so since i run on the fells in the dark in winter.
How many Bob Graham rounds wouldn't have been completed without GPS?
Thats rubbish I'd say - okay a gps can help pin point a summit invisible in the clag but it sure can't help you cover the ground or select the best line/trod/path or quite simply 'know' the ground. Out of the 42 summits I'd say that a gps could be useful in bad weather pin pointing no more than half a dozen of them but that the rest is all down to knowing the groundQuote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Foreigner
Not controversial at all. you practice, simple as that. go for lots of walk/runs and follow your route on the map - get used to associating the contours and features with what you see. Predict arrival times at features, following bearings, pacing etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy
I'm a bit obsessive with navigation but that's probably too many years wandering over dartmoor and the caingorms for you