Ramsay Round Shortcuts

There's lots of info about shortcuts & route choices for the Bob Graham, but I've not found anything at all for the Ramsay Round. There's a handy website but it's short on route details: http://www.ramsaysround.com
Steve Fallon has nifty route descriptions for doing Nevis & the Mamores (e.g. http://www.stevenfallon.co.uk/nevisroute.html) but it's not aimed at the Ramsay Round, more long runs in the hills, so it's not quite the right route and it's the wrong way round for the Mamores (assuming you do it clockwise).

For example, can you bypass Na Gruagaichean's West top on the south side? Is it possible to avoid the scrambling on An Garbhanach by sticking low in the Corrie and climbing up to the col? From Sgurr a Mhaim can you contour below the Devils Ridge to the col with Stob Ban? What route do you use to get up The Ben?

I'm on holiday in Glen Nevis in June so I'll be doing some reccies :-)

I did the mammores from glen nevis last summer and was tempted to contour from the lochan to the notch in the ridge below sgurr mhaim but bottled out. it does look like one of the few genuine short cuts though. the lack of info is probably a good thing though, a complete contrast to the BG

Joe a friend of mine has been recceing the route for her attempt in May, She's not on the forum but I'll copy your request on an email to her and she if she know any thing.

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Originally Posted by Joe

There's lots of info about shortcuts & route choices for the Bob Graham, but I've not found anything at all for the Ramsay Round. There's a handy website but it's short on route details: http://www.ramsaysround.com
Steve Fallon has nifty route descriptions for doing Nevis & the Mamores (e.g. http://www.stevenfallon.co.uk/nevisroute.html) but it's not aimed at the Ramsay Round, more long runs in the hills, so it's not quite the right route and it's the wrong way round for the Mamores (assuming you do it clockwise).

For example, can you bypass Na Gruagaichean's West top on the south side? Is it possible to avoid the scrambling on An Garbhanach by sticking low in the Corrie and climbing up to the col? From Sgurr a Mhaim can you contour below the Devils Ridge to the col with Stob Ban? What route do you use to get up The Ben?

I'm on holiday in Glen Nevis in June so I'll be doing some reccies :-)

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Na Gruagaichean: You can contour the SW side, it is rough in parts but saves some ascent. That is what I usually do.

An Garbhanach: When the path E of Stob Coire a'Chairn turns W up the coll, carry on round An Garbhanach. Do not climb too early or you will be forced down by lots of crags. The diagonal ascent to An Gearanach is very steep. I did it in my solo round but wouldn't recommend it, it is messy. The scramble is probably better particularly in bad visibility.

Sgurr a Mhaim: I prefer the contour route both clockwise and anticlockwise. Come back down the path most of the way and descend steep grassy gully. Contour below all the crags on the left. Half way round you will be forced below your target (Lochan Coire Nam Miseach) by a low rock outcrop. Cross stream below the lochan end make your way up to the path to Stob Ban.
You can also contour a bump on the ridge after Stob Ban (on the SE side) if visibility ok. It is rough.
Yiannis

As well as those suggested by Yiannis there are also a couple of shortcuts I took in the Grey corries. Round the south side of Sgurr Choinnich Beag and the south side of Stob Coire Easian (also a great source of water when I did my round).

Thanks guys - some great tips here :-)

There are two shortcuts I've discounted - going east of the Devils Ridge between Sgurr an Iubhair and Sgurr a Mhaim, and bypassing the scramble back from An Gearanach on the west side - both because it looks like you have to drop too low.

I've found http://peoplesmap.com/ very useful as it has aerial photography of the whole UK - where most sites don't have anything for the Highlands.

I'm going up for a recce the weekend after next so have a couple of questions.

1. What is the best way from Stob Ban to Stob Coire Easain?

2. Coming off Stob a Choire Mheadhion to Loch Treig I noticed there is a forest track that leads to the dam, is it quicker to drop down near the start of this track by Creagan an Fhithich or carry on along the ridge?

3. Best way off Chno Dearg to Beinn na Lap.

4. On the descent of Mullach nan Coirean has anyone tried the direct into Coire Raibhach or is it better to stick with the NE ridge?

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Originally Posted by Baggins

I'm going up for a recce the weekend after next so have a couple of questions.

1. What is the best way from Stob Ban to Stob Coire Easain?

2. Coming off Stob a Choire Mheadhion to Loch Treig I noticed there is a forest track that leads to the dam, is it quicker to drop down near the start of this track by Creagan an Fhithich or carry on along the ridge?

3. Best way off Chno Dearg to Beinn na Lap.

4. On the descent of Mullach nan Coirean has anyone tried the direct into Coire Raibhach or is it better to stick with the NE ridge?

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Hi Bill

1) On Nickys ramsey we crossed headed just south of east down the ridge and crossed the burn at NN 28728 72693 and basically wnet east to NN 28728 72693. some had said go a little south to skirt the rocks but we had no problem heading straight up.

2) follow rigde to Meall Cian cairn NE corner. from here there is a 'path' via piller to track at NN 28728 72693.

3) head to Sron Ruadh and down blunt ridge at end southerly then SE. there was a nice snow field here when we did it (This time last year) straight across and pick a gully:rolleyes: and straight up to ridge.

4) no not tried that but would be very rough. good path down NE ridge. N ridge is definately slower. from the forest track go SOUTH EAST 0.2 miles to fire break descend this to lower track and follow do not go to road as this means more climbing. From slight bend at 131 707 descend to road.

Can't say this is certainly the best way but we couldn't find any thing better.

Bill,
1. A agree with Ian's directions. On the way up S.C. Easain just pick the best way through the rough ground.
2. As Ian said follow the ridge path and cross the plateau to the steep end of Meall Cian Dearg, descend (path) and follow path NE past pillar, across stream and over boggy ground to join track at about NN346771 (Ian's bearing is as for item 1). You can short-cut the track hairpin and drop down to the dam.
3. I prefer to go along the Sron Ruadh spur part way, then drop right into the hanging valley to cross the stream at the point where the slope starts getting steep. Follow deer trods in the heather in a S direction to cross Allt Feith Thuill and then pick the best line up to the the ridge to B. na Lap.
4.As Ian said, follow the ridge path and carry on along the fence, etc....I have always stayed on the forest track until the obvious path branching off at NN127713 near the farm house, over stile and road.

Can you update me (email) with date and schedule? There is a chance I might be able to support you.
Yiannis

Bill

Enjoy your recce and good luck with your attempt

In terms of your questions I would suggest that you decide exactly how you will descend to Fersit and off the Mamores to Glen Nevis before the day.

In terms of the descent to Fersit the route I took is as described previously. Basically just before the cairn / pillar there is a path descending right. I hit the reservoir road before the dam wall - it seemed quicker to me. You can then cross the reservoir on the sand if the level is low.

Stob Ban to the Easains, the route I took was basically straight across. You can start by descending the path off stob ban but then you need to go into the heathland. There is a deer track up the left hand side of Allt Ruigh na Braoileig which makes the ascent easier.

and off the mullach there were some cairns built last year. I would suggest that you stay on the ridge and then follow the path into the forest. Turn right when you hit the first forest road and then descend through the woods (rough and overgrown but OK if you know your exact route!!) at the first cairn (100yds or so). Follow the forest track to the shortest point through the woods to the road (near the cattlegrid roughly 132706)

Cheers

Jon

Could be a bit snowy still - http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=115565

Drop me a PM if you still need help.

The route off S A Mhaim is almost certainly quicker by following Yiannis's directions I.e a low traverse under the right hand side of the crags. But it is almost all off camber and could be wearing on tired legs at the end of a round. Will and I tried it and slipped a lot. We both concluded that, unless pushed for time, the easier option is in fact to go back the way you came, via the ridge.
I was on Ben Nevis last weekend and in a white out stumbled onto the summit cairn. It was 2 foot high + the trig.:eek:
Hope it melts fast!

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Originally Posted by Bob

Could be a bit snowy still - http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=115565

Drop me a PM if you still need help.

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Any one know how much snow there is else where in Scotland?

There was very little 4 weeks ago.

Have you checked the various webcams? Also worth checking the various winter climbing blogs.

Thanks for all the info, will pore over map this week. ;)

Mullach nan Coirean descent I'll check only if I've time. I know the route pretty well after I get to the forest (spent a wet morning trying different lines last November) sounds like the line I sussed out is the one Jon described.

I did think there was an even better line following the stream down (couldn't check this in November as it was in full flood) but speaking to others it seams not to be the case.

My main focus on the recce is the Loch Treig Munros as I've never been on them and this is the section we're doing at night :eek:

You should have got an email Yiannis

Bob the more the merrier, looks like more contenders (4) than support just now.

Bill

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Originally Posted by Bob

Have you checked the various webcams? Also worth checking the various winter climbing blogs.

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I'll do that. i don't want much snow as I don't want to carry winter gear.

If any ones up there this week end let me know.

Bill

Watch out for Mark H from Dark peak who is up in your area doing a solo Tranter next week end I think. He also knows the route pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Baggins

Thanks for all the info, will pore over map this week. ;)

Mullach nan Coirean descent I'll check only if I've time. I know the route pretty well after I get to the forest (spent a wet morning trying different lines last November) sounds like the line I sussed out is the one Jon described.

I did think there was an even better line following the stream down (couldn't check this in November as it was in full flood) but speaking to others it seams not to be the case.

Bill

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I know the line you mean now. When recceing we tried following the stream up from the track instead of going through the woods and it is very rough. There is a small rough path on the right as you descend but it is not good, plus the terrain all around there is very tough. I think the best line is over the large style through the woods turn right on the forest track then cut down left off the track through a clearing in the forest and back onto the forest track and turn left towards GN YH.

After careful recceing and having listened to stories of people getting lost in the forest I elected to go down the rough path by the stream. I crossed the stream and took a track going N for a few hundread yards and then dropped right, along a dark downhill forest ride, to join the main track to the finish. This is the shortest distance and most straightforward line to follow. I do not know the state of the route now as I have not been there for a few years.
Yiannis

I'm probably a voice in the wilderness here (I'm used to that) but it's sad to reflect that with all this information and micro-navigation flying around the Ramsay (and the PBR) are sure to go the same way as the BG and eventually become just another standard test piece to follow the procession round... :(

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Originally Posted by Fellhound

I'm probably a voice in the wilderness here (I'm used to that) but it's sad to reflect that with all this information and micro-navigation flying around the Ramsay (and the PBR) are sure to go the same way as the BG and eventually become just another standard test piece to follow the procession round... :(

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Quick....

Do it now Fellhound before it becomes just another standard test piece.:D:D

I don't think the Ramsay will, partly because it is so far for most people to get to for recce purposes but also because away from the main ridges, there are much fewer paths for people to follow.

The BG is mostly on existing (and pretty obvious) paths created by countless walkers. The bits that aren't existing paths are becoming worn but you'd need to know where to cut off a main path to find these trods. The rakes on the Langdale face of Bowfell are a case in point.

The Paddy Buckley is somewhere in between these two.

And what about races? For most runners in a race it is simply a matter of following the procession, little or no navigation skill required.

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Originally Posted by Fellhound

I'm probably a voice in the wilderness here (I'm used to that) but it's sad to reflect that with all this information and micro-navigation flying around the Ramsay (and the PBR) are sure to go the same way as the BG and eventually become just another standard test piece to follow the procession round... :(

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I don't think its ever going to be as popular as the BG, its too remote and a lot rougher for a start, plus even helping out is hard as no roads cross it so it isn't the "fun day" out that a BG support is.

Does it matter that it becomes more popular? Even the numbers doing the BG are miniscule compared to the amount of walkers in the Lake District.

Yes its a test piece but isn't that why we run to test ourselves ;)

The paddy is vertainly getting more and more trods developing, I was quite suprised at the weekend. It's now getting a bit quicker I think, maybe worth including Mynydd Mawr for future roundees to make equivalent to historic completions...:-)

Trods are inevitable though. We live in a sedentary society, increasingly so. If a consequence of a more active population is a few more trods it's a small price to pay.

....and if one does not want to follow the procession round, he/she can try my Meirionnydd challenge; a good part of it is virgin wilderness-no trods. Obviously, if you do not want to repeat someone else's round, then you will have to devise your own.
Yiannis

Yes, and luckily there are plenty of hills to go at... ;)

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Originally Posted by Fellhound

Yes, and luckily there are plenty of hills to go at... ;)

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But if you want a 24 hour challenge that involves running the Grey Corries and the Mamores you'll have to do the Ramsay Round because Charlie picked the optimum route. :rolleyes:

Pity the Tranters wasn't longer as its the purest route, a horseshoe, but its not long enough for summer ;)

Had an "interesting" few days, it did actually stop raining sometimes :rolleyes:

From Stob Ban to the Easains I found the deer trods up the North side of the Allt Ruigh na Braoileig but halfway up switched sides half way up as the trods kept disappearing, this was a mistake I think as the heather was thicker so as soon as I could switched back ( the river was very steep sided for a bit so could not get back across right away)

The lay of the land here is very misleading as the streams seem to be descending across the slope so you are inclined to head straight up away from them but this is away from the summit?

Coming off Stob a Choire Mheadhion I went over/down Meall Cian Dearg I had noticed a path trending to the right coming down but kept to the main path, do you go over Meall Cian Dearg or can the steep descent be bypassed?

I then followed the path that keeps high after crossing the stream (just after the pillar) but this joined a higher road so went slightly past the dam before I could cut down to it.
There was a path that seemed to follow the stream down more direct is that any better.

Not the best of days for a recce, cloud was down to 1000ft (well below the pillar) and constant rain.

Chno Dearg to Beinn na Lap found the ridge off eventually (had to stop my lemming like mates going for the direct off the top of Chno Dearg :D)
Once on the right line thought it was a really good way off and enjoyed the climb up to Ben na Lap, the descent off was a shock though very boggy and stony :eek:

Also checked out the direct ascent of Binean Mor as this has been covered in snow the other times I've been up, I wouldn't go any other way now really fast to gain height and a nice change from splashing through bogs.

Mullach nan Coirean I'm going to stick with the NE ridge didn't have time to check it out.

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Originally Posted by Baggins

Had an "interesting" few days, it did actually stop raining sometimes :rolleyes:

From Stob Ban to the Easains I found the deer trods up the North side of the Allt Ruigh na Braoileig but halfway up switched sides half way up as the trods kept disappearing, this was a mistake I think as the heather was thicker so as soon as I could switched back ( the river was very steep sided for a bit so could not get back across right away)

The lay of the land here is very misleading as the streams seem to be descending across the slope so you are inclined to head straight up away from them but this is away from the summit?

Coming off Stob a Choire Mheadhion I went over/down Meall Cian Dearg I had noticed a path trending to the right coming down but kept to the main path, do you go over Meall Cian Dearg or can the steep descent be bypassed?

I then followed the path that keeps high after crossing the stream (just after the pillar) but this joined a higher road so went slightly past the dam before I could cut down to it.
There was a path that seemed to follow the stream down more direct is that any better.

Not the best of days for a recce, cloud was down to 1000ft (well below the pillar) and constant rain.

Chno Dearg to Beinn na Lap found the ridge off eventually (had to stop my lemming like mates going for the direct off the top of Chno Dearg :D)
Once on the right line thought it was a really good way off and enjoyed the climb up to Ben na Lap, the descent off was a shock though very boggy and stony :eek:

Also checked out the direct ascent of Binean Mor as this has been covered in snow the other times I've been up, I wouldn't go any other way now really fast to gain height and a nice change from splashing through bogs.

Mullach nan Coirean I'm going to stick with the NE ridge didn't have time to check it out.

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The descent from MCD is marked by a cairn and is on the Eastern side of the ridge just befor the drop.

After passing beneath the piller you cross a stream. Both times I've done this leg we've dropped down with the stream on it's far bank. you then cross another stream and straight over a slight climb to the track(the upper one) which you follow to the dam. I think this is quicker the other is maybe more direct but is much rougher.

Bill I believe you had a chat with a friend of mine easy to spot as he's so tall Big Bob Berzins, he was up there with another friend who pulled out of a tranter attempt after feeling ill. They both came over to the Cairngorms after to see us in.

Bill,
..."I then followed the path that keeps high after crossing the stream (just after the pillar) but this joined a higher road so went slightly past the dam before I could cut down to it.
There was a path that seemed to follow the stream down more direct is that any better".

As I remember, you can cut the track corner and drop down to the dam, that is what I did in my solo run. I had put a food stash in the bushes as well.
Do not drop down to the track that runs along the loch, the descent gets rough further down and the track has some climb in it.
Yiannis

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The descent from MCD is marked by a cairn and is on the Eastern side of the ridge just befor the drop.

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I must have missed it in the clag as I went straight over the top

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After passing beneath the piller you cross a stream. Both times I've done this leg we've dropped down with the stream on it's far bank. you then cross another stream and straight over a slight climb to the track(the upper one) which you follow to the dam. I think this is quicker the other is maybe more direct but is much rougher.

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I started going down this way then after a 100m realised I had come up on the other path so went back and came down the Way Yiannis described.

Took 48 mins to get down but slowed down a lot on the descent from MCD as I had trail shoes on (crampons and wellies would be ideal) then zigzagged all over the place trying to find the pillar, so ok with line I found. (but I'm sure there is a way to the W totally avoiding the drop of MCD and then loop back round to the pillar but thats for another time ;))

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Bill I believe you had a chat with a friend of mine easy to spot as he's so tall Big Bob Berzins, he was up there with another friend who pulled out of a tranter attempt after feeling ill. They both came over to the Cairngorms after to see us in

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That'll have been Will and Alan, I was in Fort William then, I was supposed to be going to do the Easains in the afternoon but thought I'd rather wait for the cloud and rain to come back the next day :D

Did Mark get to Na Gruagaichean as I saw studmarks coming off the summit ridge?

Bill --
That'll have been Will and Alan, I was in Fort William then, I was supposed to be going to do the Easains in the afternoon but thought I'd rather wait for the cloud and rain to come back the next day -- Bill

You are correct Bill. It was Will and I that met Bob on our way down off Ben Nevis towards the CMD arete. We had a chat, interesting to find he is number 7 on the list. Hope we chatted for a while, because looking at the times (various other excuses, toilet break, snow on Ben etc) we were on CMD summit when - schedule wise - we should have almost have been on Aonoch Mor. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Fellhound

I'm probably a voice in the wilderness here (I'm used to that) but it's sad to reflect that with all this information and micro-navigation flying around the Ramsay (and the PBR) are sure to go the same way as the BG and eventually become just another standard test piece to follow the procession round... :(

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That is disrespectful to everyone that has worked hard to do a Bob Graham round. The PB and especially the RR are too far away from mass populations to become as popular, as the BG anyway. But they are all hard and a true test of mountain ability.
When you have to drive 6 hours to get to Fort William to begin to look at the RR round (as I and a lot of others do), a bit of free information exchanging is hardly against the ethos. As with them all you still need the mental and physical fitness, as well as courage to take them on in the first place. If you say you have done one of them people know it was hard. They are a great place to start before making your own rounds up, as Yiannis and others have done. Have you got any "test pieces" that I can follow after finishing the "standard" ones? I know Yiannis, John Fleetwood and Chris Upson have.;)

I've just got back from a fantastic family walking holiday in Glen Nevis - tried a round of the Mamores on Monday but had to abandon due to beginnings of heat stroke half way round! Then had another bash on Friday and completed the round from Achriabhach (clockwise) in 7:14. This time it snowed on me!

ydt - nice to bump into you on Saturday - how did the Ramsay round attempt you were supporting go? Was the Devil's Ridge bypass good?

Regarding shortcuts - the bypass of Na Gruagachian's NW top was good. I avoided bypassing An Garbhanach on the way up, but on the first attempt I bypassed it on the way down on the west - not recommended unless you like traversing large blocks of loose scree - stick to the ridge. The bypass below the Devil's Ridge worked well. I previously tried bypassing the top between Stob Ban and Mullach nan Coirean and found it too rough. And the descent from Mullach nan Coirean? Down the start of the NE ridge then direct across the heather to the stile into the forest - far faster than following the path!

After that I've got some idea of how ludicrously tough the full round is...

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Originally Posted by Joe

I've just got back from a fantastic family walking holiday in Glen Nevis - tried a round of the Mamores on Monday but had to abandon due to beginnings of heat stroke half way round! Then had another bash on Friday and completed the round from Achriabhach (clockwise) in 7:14. This time it snowed on me!

ydt - nice to bump into you on Saturday - how did the Ramsay round attempt you were supporting go? Was the Devil's Ridge bypass good?

Regarding shortcuts - the bypass of Na Gruagachian's NW top was good. I avoided bypassing An Garbhanach on the way up, but on the first attempt I bypassed it on the way down on the west - not recommended unless you like traversing large blocks of loose scree - stick to the ridge. The bypass below the Devil's Ridge worked well. I previously tried bypassing the top between Stob Ban and Mullach nan Coirean and found it too rough. And the descent from Mullach nan Coirean? Down the start of the NE ridge then direct across the heather to the stile into the forest - far faster than following the path!

After that I've got some idea of how ludicrously tough the full round is...

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Just back from Scotland. There were three contenders, the two completed, the third retired.
Devil's ridge bypass: At Sgur a'Mhaim the two contenders running together were 5 minutes behind schedule. At Stob Ban we were 15 minutes inside schedule. It does save time.
I was out and about for almost 24 hours after I spoke to you, completely self-sufficient, recceing and supporting. Apart from a couple of bivying spells I as on my feet for 20 hours.
Yiannis

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Originally Posted by Alan Lucker

...Have you got any "test pieces" that I can follow after finishing the "standard" ones? I know Yiannis, John Fleetwood and Chris Upson have.;)

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Actually I have. I often devise challenges of my own (sometimes I even complete them ;)). John Fleetwood's recent Wainwright 7 was actually one of mine....

I applaud anyone who tackles one of these big challenges but I don't like to see them become 'just another long race'

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Originally Posted by ydt

Just back from Scotland. There were three contenders, the two completed, the third retired.

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Well done :)

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Originally Posted by ydt

Devil's ridge bypass: At Sgur a'Mhaim the two contenders running together were 5 minutes behind schedule. At Stob Ban we were 15 minutes inside schedule. It does save time.

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Agreed. Have you tried my route down off Mullach nan Coirean? It's faster than sticking to the ridge. I considered starting on the N ridge and then going into the valley but didn't have the time beforehand to check it out.

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Originally Posted by ydt

I was out and about for almost 24 hours after I spoke to you, completely self-sufficient, recceing and supporting. Apart from a couple of bivying spells I as on my feet for 20 hours.

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Hope you enjoyed it!

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Originally Posted by Joe

Well done :)



Agreed. Have you tried my route down off Mullach nan Coirean? It's faster than sticking to the ridge. I considered starting on the N ridge and then going into the valley but didn't have the time beforehand to check it out.



Hope you enjoyed it!

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Joe,
Mullach nan Coirean:
I often go off the path in order to run on soft grass but have not taken a straight line to the stile. Where about do you leave the path? Next w/e I am again up there supporting another attempt and will look at that.
Some years ago I (with Rob Woodall) had reccied a route along the N ridge. It has very good running apart from a couple of rough bits and misses out the track/road running at the end. I did not do it in my solo Ramsay as I was finishing in the dark in bad weather and had little time to spare.

Alan Lucker and Will Houghton, both of Bowland fellrunners, had a successful Ramsay on Sat/Sun 6/7th June. Bill Williamson, who started with them had to drop out before the Mamores. Support before, during and after the event was organised by Wynn.
Yiannis

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Originally Posted by ydt

Alan Lucker and Will Houghton, both of Bowland fellrunners, had a successful Ramsay on Sat/Sun 6/7th June. Bill Williamson, who started with them had to drop out before the Mamores. Support before, during and after the event was organised by Wynn.
Yiannis

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Well done Alan and Will.

Great effort.

Bad luck Baggins. I'm sure you'll be back. :D

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Originally Posted by BGSec

Well done Alan and Will.

Great effort.

Bad luck Baggins. I'm sure you'll be back. :D

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video to follow courtesy of FMA productions. i'll post up on youtube when i've edited which may be a while. was a pleasure to support and no doubt i'll get another opportunity next year Bill. Thanks to wynn for the cooking.