Cairning of the BG route

I was running around the Wasdale section of the BG route recently and noticed with sadness how many cairns had appeared on the 'fell runners' route up and off Yewbarrrow. There were noticeably large cairns on the route ascending Yewbarrow from the NT carpark and then also many cairns across the side of Yewbarrow to drop people into Dore Head. To me, cairning like this detracts from the spirit of the challenge. I seem to remember about 4 years ago, someone had even gone as far as marking the route up Yewbarrow with garden canes and reflective strips! Anyone got any thoughts on whether I should have or have not knocked them all down?

I can live with the pesky things [I] guess although it wouldn't particularly bother me if they were all knocked down. Having said that I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been glad to see the odd one in bad weather.

Saw some posts with reflective strips marking the route through the heather from Skiddaw to Great Calva. To my mind it's the equivalent of bolting a trad rock climb, ie unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Deejay

I can live with the pesky things [I] guess although it wouldn't particularly bother me if they were all knocked down. Having said that I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been glad to see the odd one in bad weather.

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This was discussed on another thread but knock em down.

As to seeing one in bad weather, did it have a signpost on it saying which way to go or perhaps you are on a 'certain' path, if not they don't really tell you anything but do add to erosion.:(

Only a comment....

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Originally Posted by LMF

Saw some posts with reflective strips marking the route through the heather from Skiddaw to Great Calva. To my mind it's the equivalent of bolting a trad rock climb, ie unacceptable.

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I might be corrected but those posts with marker tape have been there sometime. There was a small cairn marking the split in the path before Hare Crag early last spring but then someone knocked it over by july. There are small cairns at various points on the entire route, Rossett Pike to Bowfell, off Yewbarrow. I even heard that someone had at one time daubed powder paint on the route up Broadstand.

When i reccied the round i found enough natural features to mark the way, that i found the cairns were pretty useless. To be fair the BG route is like a scalectrix track. Just set the runner in the slot and off you go. It's a well worn path.

A bit like a polished trad rock route, holds covered in magnesium carbonate, cracks all scarred from the gear placements.;)

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

This was discussed on another thread but knock em down.

As to seeing one in bad weather, did it have a signpost on it saying which way to go or perhaps you are on a 'certain' path, if not they don't really tell you anything but do add to erosion.:(

Only a comment....

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Totally agree, but I never did find out who put the signpost on it saying "This way to the Golden Rule,":D

oh well - after reading this i feel better for knocking them down. I felt a bit like a kid knocking someone's sand castle over though.!

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Originally Posted by Witless

I was running around the Wasdale section of the BG route recently and noticed with sadness how many cairns had appeared on the 'fell runners' route up and off Yewbarrrow. There were noticeably large cairns on the route ascending Yewbarrow from the NT carpark and then also many cairns across the side of Yewbarrow to drop people into Dore Head. To me, cairning like this detracts from the spirit of the challenge. I seem to remember about 4 years ago, someone had even gone as far as marking the route up Yewbarrow with garden canes and reflective strips! Anyone got any thoughts on whether I should have or have not knocked them all down?

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Knock them down and any others you find in any wild places, with the exception of the few long standing well crafted summit cairns.

As to this http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co....st_firm_chief/ please NO

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Originally Posted by Witless

oh well - after reading this i feel better for knocking them down. I felt a bit like a kid knocking someone's sand castle over though.!

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I am curious to know who did bother to build them, and who put the tape on the posts to calva. Pity they didn't build a bridge over the Caldew as well.

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Originally Posted by Bobert

I am curious to know who did bother to build them, and who put the tape on the posts to calva. Pity they didn't build a bridge over the Caldew as well.

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Flipping hell don't encourage them :rolleyes:

I really do lament the passing of the BG as a really adventurous mountain challenge. In Bob Graham's day it must have been one heck of an adventure. Nowadays it's just a racetrack. :(

Still, plenty of other adventures to go at ...eh?

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Originally Posted by Trundler

I really do lament the passing of the BG as a really adventurous mountain challenge. In Bob Graham's day it must have been one heck of an adventure. Nowadays it's just a racetrack. :(

Still, plenty of other adventures to go at ...eh?

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Very true.

It'll soon become another box to tick off for the gym rats and office workers.

Tough Guy - tick
London marathon - tick
Mountain marathon - tick
Bob Graham - tick

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Originally Posted by JohnK

Knock them down and any others you find in any wild places, with the exception of the few long standing well crafted summit cairns.

As to this http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co....st_firm_chief/ please NO

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By Heck, that Mark Weir is one totally full of himself, and yet totally ignorant, meglomaniac. A statue of any sort, of anyone, is the last thing that AW would have wanted on any fell top. If one should appear, we'll have to tap-up the caving mates for a couple of pounds of 'bang'.

He compared its size to the Corcovado statue in Brazil: “It’s the new thing isn’t it?” he said. “The thing is, it opens a debate for people to discuss and agree"

Now I know my English isn't great but didn't think a debate led to agreement....he is a grade A to55er isn't he.

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Originally Posted by Trundler

I really do lament the passing of the BG as a really adventurous mountain challenge. In Bob Graham's day it must have been one heck of an adventure. Nowadays it's just a racetrack. :(

Still, plenty of other adventures to go at ...eh?

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Great to do it no doubt and the club has a certain cache about it but I agree that BG did it as an adventure and for a bit of fun and that it would be better if people had the imagination and integrity to do their own thing instead.

I did it for an adventure and a bit of fun as well.

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Originally Posted by Grouse

I did it for an adventure and a bit of fun as well.

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Me too.
And cairns or no cairns, its still effin hard for mere mortals!

The Bg is a great thing - I have rarely had as pleasurable weekends as when I was driving up to the Lakes and running around / getting lost recceing for my round last year. Memories I will always cherish. Of course, though, it's just one part of the much bigger and broader picture that is fell running. The more races and different types of events the better !:D

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Originally Posted by Miss July

Very true.

It'll soon become another box to tick off for the gym rats and office workers.

Tough Guy - tick
London marathon - tick
Mountain marathon - tick
Bob Graham - tick

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Bit of an elitist/patronising post I think and does belittle the time/effort/guts that folks put into their BG attempts and/or any other boxes to tick. I for one am happy to see gym rats and office workers getting out and taking on something real and, if it makes them happy and keeps them fit, fair play to them.

Im guessing that the point of all the cairns are to help show the way over the BG route?

Does everybody have something about cairns fullstop (other than on the summits) or just on the BG route?

As a younger child, i used to always end up either damming a river, climbing a tree, generally hurting myself and building cairns. Id either start my own or add to others. I wasnt doing it for any particular reason but just to enjoy myself.

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Originally Posted by nikalas

I for one am happy to see gym rats and office workers getting out and taking on something real and, if it makes them happy and keeps them fit, fair play to them.

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Did I say the contrary?

No.

With a few exceptions, most of the BG is on established paths and these are likely to have been cairned by walkers over the years. There are also one or two paths that are infrequently used by walkers but are recorded in guides such as Wainwright's and are also marked by small cairns - the route from Langdale Combe to Rossett Pike is one such, it's also used in part by the Langdale Horseshoe race.

At a rough guess there's the following:
large parts of the Skiddaw - Great Calva - Mungrisedale Common section;
the direct line up Clough Head;
the direct line from Grizedale Tarn up Fairfield;
the descent to Dunmail from Seat Sandal;
the climb up Steel Fell;
the rakes on Bowfell
The ascent of Yewbarrow

I've seen cairns on Clough Head and the Rakes on Bowfell, I've seen reflective wands on the section up Great Calva. There could be more these days.

Personally I think the route is now well enough known that extra cairns aren't needed. I think that those that mark the starts of non-walker sections should be removed - there's enough erosion on the Bowfell rakes as it is, without encouraging more traffic than the BG itself generates. The contender and/or their navigators should know the desired line well enough that they aren't reliant on locating a small pile of stones that may or may not be where they think it is.

As for BG himself having more of an adventure and doing it for fun. Well he did set out with the intention of extending Eustace Thomas' Lakeland 24hr record that had stood for 12 years.

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

Im guessing that the point of all the cairns are to help show the way over the BG route?

Does everybody have something about cairns fullstop (other than on the summits) or just on the BG route?

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Hi Al

1) As mentioned earlier a cairn is a pile of stones, it's not like an Alpine marker with paint and a possible number so how do you know the cairn you are looking at marks your route. The only way I can think is if you are already on that route, if so why do you need a pile of stones to tell you the way.

2) Heard on Kinder- a guide leader telling her group that the cairns marked the way back to Edale:confused: Problem was they were walking away from Edale at the time:rolleyes:

3) If you move rocks from there natural area (to create a cairn)you are causing erosion in 2 ways.
i) Exposing the area to the elements
ii) Creating a follow me attitude for other hill users. This brings a higher footfall to a concentrated area which wears down the surface exaggerating the erosion. Taking this to the next step once the path has expanded you step to one side thereby widening it:(

In some areas of Scotland you can walk/run all day with out getting near or seeing a path until you get near a summit.

It's difficult to see how removing cairns in the Lakes or the Peak could help as most paths are so well established due to the number of people in the hills but the true wild places need looking after and unless they are a marked Cairn(on a Map) I would knock it down

Hope this helps

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Originally Posted by iandarkpeak

hi Al

1) As Mentioned Earlier A Cairn Is A Pile Of Stones, It's Not Like An Alpine Marker With Paint And A Possible Number So How Do You Know The Cairn You Are Looking At Marks Your Route. The Only Way I Can Think Is If You Are Already On That Route, If So Why Do You Need A Pile Of Stones To Tell You The Way.

2) Heard On Kinder- A Guide Leader Telling Her Group That The Cairns Marked The Way Back To Edale:confused: Problem Was They Were Walking Away From Edale At The Time:rolleyes:

3) If You Move Rocks From There Natural Area (to Create A Cairn)you Are Causing Erosion In 2 Ways.
I) Exposing The Area To The Elements
Ii) Creating A Follow Me Attitude For Other Hill Users. This Brings A Higher Footfall To A Concentrated Area Which Wears Down The Surface Exaggerating The Erosion. Taking This To The Next Step Once The Path Has Expanded You Step To One Side Thereby Widening It:(

In Some Areas Of Scotland You Can Walk/run All Day With Out Getting Near Or Seeing A Path Until You Get Near A Summit.

It's Difficult To See How Removing Cairns In The Lakes Or The Peak Could Help As Most Paths Are So Well Established Due To The Number Of People In The Hills But The True Wild Places Need Looking After And Unless They Are A Marked Cairn(on A Map) I Would Knock It Down

Hope This Helps

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spot On

I did hear a tale a little while ago about a certain runner building a small pile of stones at the start of a particularly cunning line on a race - I also heard that a rival took great pleasure in dismantling it and reconstructing it in just the wrong place........

I thought it was just me that did that...

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Originally Posted by Calf

He compared its size to the Corcovado statue in Brazil: “It’s the new thing isn’t it?” he said. “The thing is, it opens a debate for people to discuss and agree"

Now I know my English isn't great but didn't think a debate led to agreement....he is a grade A to55er isn't he.

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Is this the same w@nker who sheltered some OMM competitors last year, then turned on the race organisers for attempting to turn the Lake District into a morgue?!

Maybe business is slack again at the slate mine?:rolleyes:

His chocolate factory's doing fine though.

On the theme of cairns!

I took 3 friends out into t'fells last weekend, 2 of them for the first time ever.
When we got to the top of the first peak (Yewbarrow coincidentally), the first thing that the 2 newcomers did was to pick up a rock & place it on the summit cairn. I didn't ask why, nor did they pass comment on their actions!
It must just be an inbuilt subconscious thing (to some people).
I'm not a big fan of cairns, as it's already been said, it's just a pile of rocks (& if yer lost, it could be a pointer to anywhere).
As regards the BGR, I've helped with pacing & although it's definitely do-able, it is a big ask & a huge day out.
Having a crack in July, but not planning on having any strobes nor neon lights though....

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Originally Posted by Eric Cantona

On the theme of cairns!

I took 3 friends out into t'fells last weekend, 2 of them for the first time ever.
When we got to the top of the first peak (Yewbarrow coincidentally), the first thing that the 2 newcomers did was to pick up a rock & place it on the summit cairn. I didn't ask why, nor did they pass comment on their actions!
It must just be an inbuilt subconscious thing (to some people).
I'm not a big fan of cairns, as it's already been said, it's just a pile of rocks (& if yer lost, it could be a pointer to anywhere).
As regards the BGR, I've helped with pacing & although it's definitely do-able, it is a big ask & a huge day out.
Having a crack in July, but not planning on having any strobes nor neon lights though....

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Cairns are here to stay! Unless we do away with people.

And it is as inevitable as night follows day that the route of the BGR will get more and more "visible" and all the carping is just another boring version of the fell runners' version of "it wasn't like that in my day".

And it will get worse when my book on the BGR route for non-fellrunners, on the lines of Wainwright's Coast to Coast book, is published.

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Originally Posted by alias

Cairns are here to stay! Unless we do away with people.

And it is as inevitable as night follows day that the route of the BGR will get more and more "visible" and all the carping is just another boring version of the fell runners' version of "it wasn't like that in my day".

And it will get worse when my book on the BGR route for non-fellrunners, on the lines of Wainwright's Coast to Coast book, is published.

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Very true and i feel the same.

I see what your all saying and that erosion is a big problem and it needs sorting.
But isnt it like fighting an endless battle.

Half of you are making it out that the Bob Graham has become so easy now and its not like it was. The BG is my ultimate dream and your all suggesting i might as well just run up skiddaw as its worth as much.

Cheers Ian ;).

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

The BG is my ultimate dream and your all suggesting i might as well just run up skiddaw as its worth as much.

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Make your own dreams my friend, not other people's.

Alternatively

Ingnore the small minded people who would scoff or belittle your dreams.
They probably don't have the strength or courage to persue a dream of their own.

Agreed. Or even peruse them.

Some men see things as they are and say, "Why?" I dream of things that never were and say, "Why not?"

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Originally Posted by Miss July

Some men see things as they are and say, "Why?" I dream of things that never were and say, "Why not?"

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In Italia we give the numbers to running cliches.

So instead of typing we say just: numero sette, numero tredici, numero milleduecentodue.

It save the precious time for the running.

And in this country, we quote G.B. Shaw... :)

Nice one by the way Miss July... I recognise your style ;)

As a matter of fact, I like it so much, I have made it into my signature for now, hope you don't mind Miss?

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

Half of you are making it out that the Bob Graham has become so easy now and its not like it was. The BG is my ultimate dream and your all suggesting i might as well just run up skiddaw as its worth as much.

Cheers Ian ;).

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Having read back through this thread i cannot see where anyone has said the BG has become so easy. Some folk go through life always cheating to get ahead. I question anyone who thinks it's easy. I think the BG is such a leveller. You work hard at something for so long, commit so much, get the mindset right and go and do it. Success is not a given. There's absolutely nothing easy about that.

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Originally Posted by Filippo Acciaiuoli

In Italia we give the numbers to running cliches.

So instead of typing we say just: numero sette, numero tredici, numero milleduecentodue.

It save the precious time for the running.

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Molto compiaciuto Filippo. Quando avete fatto il vostro giro Bob Graham?