UKA British Fell & Hill Relays

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Originally Posted by watto

Does anybody know if there are any route descriptions out anywhere for leg 1,2 and 4?

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Relay website link here with maps of legs 1,2 and 4. Cheers.

http://www.britishfellrelay.org.uk/

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Originally Posted by fyurtez

Relay website link here with maps of legs 1,2 and 4. Cheers.

http://www.britishfellrelay.org.uk/

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Thanks! :thumbup:

anyone got leg3, give you a tenner for it

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Originally Posted by geronimo

anyone got leg3, give you a tenner for it

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Up a hill passed 6 or 7 checkpoints and back to the finish, about 8 miles.

Simples, don't worry about it.

I've just got a few observations here and I wondered what others thought. Please bear in mind this is based on my limited 5 or 6 years of these relays so I stand to be corrected.

1. This year the stats look quite challenging. Of course when the venue is Llanberis that is likely to mean a bit more ascent than the other recent venues, but the legs are also a little longer. So we have approx 20% more climb and 10% more distance than recent years.
Time spreads
Church Stretton 2012 were 3:16 - 6:56
Kettlewell 2011 were 3:23 - 7:00
Lomonds of Fife were 3:50 - 7:54
Ennerdale were 3:29 - 7:03

There's no predicted leg times that I can see on the event website, but looking at the stats I'd have thought any team getting in under 4 hours won't be far off winning.
I'd go as far as to say I think the winning time may be outside of the 4 hour barrier.

2. If I'm close on point 1, then that means that we will have a spread up to 8 hours this year as the slowest teams are usually twice the time of the winning team.
However we have the 3 HOUR Cut off at the end of Leg 2.
I can see this catching a lot, possibly 25% of the teams that are involved.
If you consider that last year around 10% of the leg 1 runners were outside 1 hour and 15% of Leg 2 runners outside of 2 hours and around 10% of the teams involved finished leg 2 outside of 3 hours.

This is definitely a more challenging route.

So should there be a cut-off at 3 hours? Surely it would be better to have a leg 3 mass start at 3 hours and perhaps a leg 4 mass start at 4:30?
That's got to be preferable to having up to 150 runners unable to have their run.

As I say above, I might be missing something as I'm just looking at the stats for the legs and I've never raced in the area, just watched a few races.

Llanberis 2001 time spreads were 3:23 - 5.52.

Last team on Leg 2 came through 2.43 into the race.

Leg 1 in 2001 was very similar to this year's Leg 1, Leg 2 this year is a little longer than last time. Leg 4 is similar to Leg 4 in 2001.

I have maps for the 2001 Legs 1, 2 and 4 but not the navigational route so I can't compare that with this year's Leg 3.

It may be that one or two teams won't make the cut off but not 25% as you suggest. The usual mass start at the beginning of Leg 4 should ensure that everybody's in before it gets dark!

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I've just got a few observations here and I wondered what others thought. Please bear in mind this is based on my limited 5 or 6 years of these relays so I stand to be corrected.

1. This year the stats look quite challenging. Of course when the venue is Llanberis that is likely to mean a bit more ascent than the other recent venues, but the legs are also a little longer. So we have approx 20% more climb and 10% more distance than recent years.
Time spreads
Church Stretton 2012 were 3:16 - 6:56
Kettlewell 2011 were 3:23 - 7:00
Lomonds of Fife were 3:50 - 7:54
Ennerdale were 3:29 - 7:03

There's no predicted leg times that I can see on the event website, but looking at the stats I'd have thought any team getting in under 4 hours won't be far off winning.
I'd go as far as to say I think the winning time may be outside of the 4 hour barrier.

2. If I'm close on point 1, then that means that we will have a spread up to 8 hours this year as the slowest teams are usually twice the time of the winning team.
However we have the 3 HOUR Cut off at the end of Leg 2.
I can see this catching a lot, possibly 25% of the teams that are involved.
If you consider that last year around 10% of the leg 1 runners were outside 1 hour and 15% of Leg 2 runners outside of 2 hours and around 10% of the teams involved finished leg 2 outside of 3 hours.

This is definitely a more challenging route.

So should there be a cut-off at 3 hours? Surely it would be better to have a leg 3 mass start at 3 hours and perhaps a leg 4 mass start at 4:30?
That's got to be preferable to having up to 150 runners unable to have their run.

As I say above, I might be missing something as I'm just looking at the stats for the legs and I've never raced in the area, just watched a few races.

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I ran Leg 2 in 2001 - we were well down the field but our total teams time before our Leg 3 runner started was 2:12.

I'm with you WP on the mass starts.
I would hate to think I had travelled and didn't get to race due to a cut-off

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I've just got a few observations here and I wondered what others thought. Please bear in mind this is based on my limited 5 or 6 years of these relays so I stand to be corrected.

1. This year the stats look quite challenging. Of course when the venue is Llanberis that is likely to mean a bit more ascent than the other recent venues, but the legs are also a little longer. So we have approx 20% more climb and 10% more distance than recent years.
Time spreads
Church Stretton 2012 were 3:16 - 6:56
Kettlewell 2011 were 3:23 - 7:00
Lomonds of Fife were 3:50 - 7:54
Ennerdale were 3:29 - 7:03

There's no predicted leg times that I can see on the event website, but looking at the stats I'd have thought any team getting in under 4 hours won't be far off winning.
I'd go as far as to say I think the winning time may be outside of the 4 hour barrier.

2. If I'm close on point 1, then that means that we will have a spread up to 8 hours this year as the slowest teams are usually twice the time of the winning team.
However we have the 3 HOUR Cut off at the end of Leg 2.
I can see this catching a lot, possibly 25% of the teams that are involved.
If you consider that last year around 10% of the leg 1 runners were outside 1 hour and 15% of Leg 2 runners outside of 2 hours and around 10% of the teams involved finished leg 2 outside of 3 hours.

This is definitely a more challenging route.

So should there be a cut-off at 3 hours? Surely it would be better to have a leg 3 mass start at 3 hours and perhaps a leg 4 mass start at 4:30?
That's got to be preferable to having up to 150 runners unable to have their run.

As I say above, I might be missing something as I'm just looking at the stats for the legs and I've never raced in the area, just watched a few races.

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For information WP.

As one of the course designers (bar navigation leg) I'm estimating winning leg times as:

Leg 1: 30mins
Leg 2: 1.15mins
Leg 3: 1-1.15 (this is what I've been told)
Leg 4: 40mins

Therefore I wouldn't worry about the winners struggling to get home in over 4 hours, by my estimates they'll be way under 4 hours.

Regards these being more challenging routes, again having ran the last 6 relays I'd have to disagree with you. Leg 1 is certainly one of the shortest and easiest for a few years. Leg 2 I'd agree is one of the toughest of last few years, the stiff climb up Moel Cynghorion being the killer. Having said that, the long leg up in the Lomonds a few years back had a winning time of over 1hr 10mins, there was also one stiff climb on the long leg at Bingley two years ago. Leg 3 I've no idea but I'd guess similar to previous relays. Leg 4 is some 5 minutes longer than last years 1st and 4th legs - basically one big climb / descent.

Agree with you Math - you've done a great job with these courses. Regarding the toughness of the routes this is an issue that crops up again and again - imagine if everybody went home after the race saying it was all too easy! They'd be thinking they hadn't got their moneysworth wouldn't they?

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Originally Posted by RhosgadMath

For information WP.

As one of the course designers (bar navigation leg) I'm estimating winning leg times as:

Leg 1: 30mins
Leg 2: 1.15mins
Leg 3: 1-1.15 (this is what I've been told)
Leg 4: 40mins

Therefore I wouldn't worry about the winners struggling to get home in over 4 hours, by my estimates they'll be way under 4 hours.

Regards these being more challenging routes, again having ran the last 6 relays I'd have to disagree with you. Leg 1 is certainly one of the shortest and easiest for a few years. Leg 2 I'd agree is one of the toughest of last few years, the stiff climb up Moel Cynghorion being the killer. Having said that, the long leg up in the Lomonds a few years back had a winning time of over 1hr 10mins, there was also one stiff climb on the long leg at Bingley two years ago. Leg 3 I've no idea but I'd guess similar to previous relays. Leg 4 is some 5 minutes longer than last years 1st and 4th legs - basically one big climb / descent.

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And why do my posts come up at the start of somebody else's quote?

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I've just got a few observations here and I wondered what others thought. Please bear in mind this is based on my limited 5 or 6 years of these relays so I stand to be corrected.

1. This year the stats look quite challenging. Of course when the venue is Llanberis that is likely to mean a bit more ascent than the other recent venues, but the legs are also a little longer. So we have approx 20% more climb and 10% more distance than recent years.
Time spreads
Church Stretton 2012 were 3:16 - 6:56
Kettlewell 2011 were 3:23 - 7:00
Lomonds of Fife were 3:50 - 7:54
Ennerdale were 3:29 - 7:03

There's no predicted leg times that I can see on the event website, but looking at the stats I'd have thought any team getting in under 4 hours won't be far off winning.
I'd go as far as to say I think the winning time may be outside of the 4 hour barrier.

2. If I'm close on point 1, then that means that we will have a spread up to 8 hours this year as the slowest teams are usually twice the time of the winning team.
However we have the 3 HOUR Cut off at the end of Leg 2.
I can see this catching a lot, possibly 25% of the teams that are involved.
If you consider that last year around 10% of the leg 1 runners were outside 1 hour and 15% of Leg 2 runners outside of 2 hours and around 10% of the teams involved finished leg 2 outside of 3 hours.

This is definitely a more challenging route.

So should there be a cut-off at 3 hours? Surely it would be better to have a leg 3 mass start at 3 hours and perhaps a leg 4 mass start at 4:30?
That's got to be preferable to having up to 150 runners unable to have their run.

As I say above, I might be missing something as I'm just looking at the stats for the legs and I've never raced in the area, just watched a few races.

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I think leg 1 is short.. so surprised if many get cut off.. agree mass start.. seems a petty for people not to make a day of it.. but marshals may have to move.. I dont know.

I don't think it looks overly tough. Look at the eilio race sub 1 hour record.. and thats the terrain.. it is fast runnable terrain for much of it.. ok some steep walks..

Would be very surprised if that was over 4 hours.. leg 2 is basically the eilio race route in reverse.. leg 1 short.. leg 4 up and down eilio good running.. no idea 3 but would guess 20-25 for leg 1, sub 1:10 for leg 2?, leg 4 comfortably sub 1 hour. leaving a good 1:30 for leg 3..

Wasnt CD's old training run war memorial > eilio > war memorial under 1 hour.. so leg 4 is less than that.. in a race environment...

leg 1 is 4.8 mile so 20-25 mins? That would be impressive on a flat road.
Leg 2 9 mile/3280ft - that makes me think Fairfield ish. 80 mins + for the front end?
So I'd guess 1:50 at the front end, if that's the case it will be around 3:40 at the back after 2 legs.
I fully understand about marshalls which is why I asked about a mass start for leg 3.

Anyway Iain, you know the area, I don't. Perhaps the stats don't quite reflect the pace of the terrain.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

leg 1 is 4.8 mile so 20-25 mins? That would be impressive on a flat road.
Leg 2 9 mile/3280ft - that makes me think Fairfield ish. 80 mins + for the front end?
So I'd guess 1:50 at the front end, if that's the case it will be around 3:40 at the back after 2 legs.
I fully understand about marshalls which is why I asked about a mass start for leg 3.

Anyway Iain, you know the area, I don't. Perhaps the stats don't quite reflect the pace of the terrain.

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well wrong on 1 it just look looked short.. but not many races use that...

But leg 2 is the eilio race.. plus some. the record is 58? and in a competitive race environment.. so longer and its a slower route as its up mc.. but I'd be surprised it it was more than 1 min/mile slower..

Can anyone who is familiar with this terrain, give an indication of how 'runnable' leg 1 may be compared to leg 4...For example is there much technical steep descent/ascent, over rough ground in either?

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Originally Posted by stevenh

Can anyone who is familiar with this terrain, give an indication of how 'runnable' leg 1 may be compared to leg 4...For example is there much technical steep descent/ascent, over rough ground in either?

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Leg 1 is very runnable.. surprised its 4.8 miles.. I just guessed around 6km.. but its a steepsih climb initially.. not seen the track for a while so not sure on the state of that bit, but once up its a loop, that terrain isn't superb.. but there a few trods up there so they may use one of the, then a very fast descent on the snowdon marathon descent and then cut through on a narrowish steepish path then back to road.. then cut across on decent trails and along the road back. Leg 1 is more runnable, from after that first k.. and a shorter route.. much less climbing.

Leg 2 is more of a proper fell route.. few if any will run the initial nose.. then many will walk chunks of that whole ridge the summit.. its a fair old drag up.. then fast descent. None of it is technical.

There's no particularly rocky sections, may be the odd bit early round the quarries but not sure on precise route they've taken.

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Originally Posted by IainR

Leg 1 is very runnable.. surprised its 4.8 miles.. I just guessed around 6km.. but its a steepsih climb initially.. not seen the track for a while so not sure on the state of that bit, but once up its a loop, that terrain isn't superb.. but there a few trods up there so they may use one of the, then a very fast descent on the snowdon marathon descent and then cut through on a narrowish steepish path then back to road.. then cut across on decent trails and along the road back. Leg 1 is more runnable, from after that first k.. and a shorter route.. much less climbing.

Leg 2 is more of a proper fell route.. few if any will run the initial nose.. then many will walk chunks of that whole ridge the summit.. its a fair old drag up.. then fast descent. None of it is technical.

There's no particularly rocky sections, may be the odd bit early round the quarries but not sure on precise route they've taken.

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Thank you.

Plenty to get stuck into. I fancy leg 2 myself -great running over those hills.

Just to confirm and to ease concerns, leg 2 cut off will remain at 3 hours but there will be a mass start for remaining leg 3 runners at 1300 hrs, i.e. after 3 hours. So therefore all teams will have a run, which as the above comments state is only fair.

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Originally Posted by RhosgadMath

Just to confirm and to ease concerns, leg 2 cut off will remain at 3 hours but there will be a mass start for remaining leg 3 runners at 1300 hrs, i.e. after 3 hours. So therefore all teams will have a run, which as the above comments state is only fair.

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Good news that Math, thanks for the update.

Agree with Stagger. I hope it won't affect us anyway :)

Good call Math, cheers for that.

Does anybody fancy a reccy of Leg two on the 15th about 6pm ??

Either full or part course

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Originally Posted by multi coloured

Does anybody fancy a reccy of Leg two on the 15th about 6pm ??

Either full or part course

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I'd make it 5pm or take your head torch :)

[QUOTE=multi coloured;559196]Does anybody fancy a reccy of Leg two on the 15th about 6pm ??

I was going to do a recce that day a bit earlier if you can get there?

Seems to be some confusion over the 3 hr cut off after leg 2 , anyone not making it in time are the leg 3 runners going on a mass start or are they out of the race altogether then ? I seem to have read both versions of this . Hopefully won't be an an issue but just in case !

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Originally Posted by RhosgadMath

Just to confirm and to ease concerns, leg 2 cut off will remain at 3 hours but there will be a mass start for remaining leg 3 runners at 1300 hrs, i.e. after 3 hours. So therefore all teams will have a run, which as the above comments state is only fair.

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Here you go Rhino

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Originally Posted by Stagger

Here you go Rhino

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ah cheers Stagger. thought I had read that somewhere.

(For Sale) Double room at Bangor Travelodge for Sat 19th £25.50. Pm if interested.

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Originally Posted by Wain

(For Sale) Double room at Bangor Travelodge for Sat 19th £25.50. Pm if interested.

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Room now been sold

Is it time to start making bold predictions yet?

I'll start on leg 1. Young Guns shoot-out between Will Neill (Mercia), Pete Hodkinson (Erewash) and Kris Jones (Dark Peak). This is all dependant on selections and team tactics however!

I must say I do enjoy tales of front-heavy teams whose 2nd leg runners curse their leg 1 whippet!

You're not doing leg 1 then?

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Originally Posted by ba-ba

I'll start on leg 1. Young Guns shoot-out between Will Neill (Mercia), Pete Hodkinson (Erewash) and Kris Jones (Dark Peak). This is all dependant on selections and team tactics however!

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Well my money is on the CVFR Young Gun, Max.

Is anyone having trouble ordering additional tee-shirts . Whatever number i enter it enters one number lower. Well p****d off with it now !

Took a trip to Llanberis today and attempted a Leg 4 recce. The weather was truly atrocious and we turned back before the top of Moel Eilio before my core temperature dropped too much. Wind, driving rain and seriously low temperatures. I hope Sunday is a little better!

A quick question. I've traced the route down from Moel Eilio to CP 3 and through the fields but the route through the quarries doesn't look obviously on the map or Google Earth at all. Is it more obvious on the ground and will it be well marshalled? I can see it all going wrong in the final kilometre and me throwing it all away!!

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Originally Posted by BillJ

Well my money is on the CVFR Young Gun, Max.

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Can't see past Max in the form he has been in.

Looking forward to giving it a good go though!

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Originally Posted by Will-Moorlands

Can't see past Max in the form he has been in.

Looking forward to giving it a good go though!

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Ah yes Max as well, somehow slipped my mind!

naturally as an 'orienteer' (HA!) I'm on nav.

Don't count out James Hall for the wharfee's on leg 1! Glad I'm not on that leg! :-)

Oh christ, I'm on leg 1. :(

Good luck! ;-)

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Originally Posted by Stefan B

A quick question. I've traced the route down from Moel Eilio to CP 3 and through the fields but the route through the quarries doesn't look obviously on the map or Google Earth at all. Is it more obvious on the ground and will it be well marshalled? I can see it all going wrong in the final kilometre and me throwing it all away!!

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We recced it a few weeks ago and found the descent through the quarries very difficult to find. It is not obvious at the top end but becomes easier to find as you descend further towards the start/finish, where an obvious way cleared of bracken etc. becomes visible. We spoke to two other groups who had recced it and had the same trouble. However as it is the reverse of the way out on leg 1 I imagine it will be well flagged/marshalled on the day?

We've got the athlete on the front cover of this week's AW on our first leg!