good to see the natural barefoot runner is ok then and does not have to wear shoes....
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good to see the natural barefoot runner is ok then and does not have to wear shoes....
Well said Britta!Quote:
Originally Posted by Britta
Fell running for me is certainly NOT about a lot of the wording on this thread (and many other threads on this forum).
Social media has possibly 'helped' to increase the numbers of runners on the fells, and folks posting photos and videos has probably 'helped' to popularise fell running.
Maybe I have inadvertently 'helped' to increase the number of race competitors by posting many pics and vids over the last few years? If I have then I'm not proud of that.
Inevitably fell running will become even more popular in the future and therefore, unfortunately in my mind, many more rules and regs will have to be put in place just to cover the organisers.
For me, if I go out on the fells, either for a run or a race, then I take full responsibility for myself and that's how it should be.
By all means produce some basic guidance for beginners but for crissakes DON'T go down the line of how some people on this thread want to see fell running go.
I'm sick of reading unreadable posts on 'ealth & bl%%dy safety!
HELLO THERE! We're talking about fell running here!
Cue the long-winded, unreadable replies...
Here bleedin' here Wharfee.
Nothing at all to do with fell running I know but the sport of bare knuckle boxing was supposed to be made safer with the introduction of boxing gloves. In actual fact the introduction of boxing gloves suddenly made head shots far more viable (bare knuckle boxers usually stuck to body punches because boney heads broke their hands) and led to a massively increased death toll in the sport :)
Ummm... so lets make boxing gloves compulsory in fell running too :)
It's not what we think about fell running or want it to be, but how outsiders might look at it in case of a tragic accidentQuote:
Originally Posted by wharfeego
Wharfee I must protest… I always try to keep my posts as short and to the point as I can, and speak in plain English, even when I’m talking about bloomin’ ‘elf and safety..:)Quote:
Originally Posted by wharfeego
I understand that people are sick of hearing about safety but a man died in a fell race and we can’t ignore that.
As a fell runner, I’m on the same wavelength as those of you who just want to run and not worry about it. Most of the people who have been the most vociferous on these safety related threads lately, believe it or not, are arguing for exactly what you are crying out for; that the sport is able to continue the way we like it and not become buried in a mass of hastily drafted rules in the mistaken belief that that will make it safer!
Surprisingly, we believe the sport can continue unspoilt AND can be safer at the same time, with very few rules, but the FRA is not really taking that on board.
That’s what the fight is about.
SHR and WFRA are currently considering draft documents which have been drafted by people – including me - who want to preserve the traditional values of the sport, minimise bureaucracy, and enjoy fell running as it’s always been.
Don’t shoot the messengers, even if the message is sometimes long winded and, to be honest, a crushing bore! It’s trad fell running that’s at stake!
PS - I also agree with Britta, who makes the good point that glamourisation of the sport doesn't help; this is a sport for grouchy old curmudgeons and let's not forget it. :p
I understand the argument, I just don't think it works in practice. If you make kit optional, some people will take less than would be required if it were mandatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
Also, I think most people are capably of understanding where responsibility starts and finishes. eg, I need to carry kit, but if I get lost it's my responsibility to sort it out. It's not rocket science.
You are Stephen Fry and I claim my £5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
One issue is the weight of the kit. Some people will say that they will carry nothing, so that they are lighter and able to run faster. Similarly people will say that they don't like carrying a bumbag, so won't carry anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
All sports have to have rules. Even in the old days of fellrunning there were rules, e.g. you have to visit all the checkpoints on the route.
It is perfectly reasonable to say that a rule for fellrunning is that the minimum equipment required for fell running is full waterproofs, hat, gloves, map, compass, whistle, emergency food. That then puts everyone on the same basis for racing and no-one can get an unfair advantage. That equipment is also there for the safety of the runner, and it is then up to the runner if they think they need to carry more.
Many years ago the organisers of the Ben Nevis race told everyone they had to start in their waterproofs to prove that everyone had them (the day was pretty poor). There was a lot of groaning about this. My view was that it was their race and could tell us what their rules were. If I didn't like it I could not run. What I did was to run out of the field, then take my jacket off, until I needed it later. That worked for me and for the organisers.
Neither is having the sense to carry kit in dodgy conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
The FRA should concentrate on education instead of trying to impose unworkable rules. A better alternative would be a licensing system where runners need to complete an online course on mountain safety / navigational skills before they can enter races. The only pre-requisite for race entry would be possession of the certificate which would have to be renewed annually / every two years
The runner, aware of the rules, would then take responsibility for their own safety.
The course would be administered by the FRA / SHR etc as part of the membership - free to members but with a small cost to non-members.
I'm PADI qualified in Scuba Diving and had to do a similar thing (theory & practical tests) - there is no reason why a watered down (no pun intended) version could not be applied to fell running.
I agree knowledge and experience is key.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
They have been moving down the education road with Hypothermia article, navigation article etc. However how many runners are members of the FRA, certainly a lot of the shorter routes have high percentage of roadies turn up. we ask for experience in the longer runs but you still get plenty of unattached runners? very difficult to police.
since when did U/A status denote lack of experience??Quote:
you still get plenty of unattached runners
So the only way to make fell running safer is to make people go on a nav course and join a club?
Do that and watch the sport wither and die.
Yeah unattached runners eh? How rubbish are they? ;)
anyone really serious about fell running would join a club, surely?
If you implemented something like I said, it wouldn't matter if you were unattached.
...and 'obviously' the whole spirit of fell running is wanting to be certified, monitored, measured, timed and corralled. Can't wait...!:rolleyes:
(Oh crap...my better get my BMI up a bit, might fail my compulsory standardised chart measurement...:eek: )
not a dig at you Mr theheathens, but at someone who I believe is now on the committee.....
Nevertheless, certificates to run on the fells? You honestly think that's going to work?
I'm saying that ROs make the licence compulsory to enter races but the FRA et al administer it. You would not actually have to be a member of said organisation, although membership may mean you get it free / discounted.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
It doesn't really matter if you are unattached or a member of the FRA, as long as you complete the course and renew fairly regularly.
Certificates to RACE on the fells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
There's nothing to stop me from going scuba diving on my own without a permit but you have to be qualified to dive with a group. It works well for them.
Obviously the risks are greater there but with technology, there is no reason why a similar scheme couldn't be administered within 2 years.
Fell running or racing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stick
An hours worth of education every year or two is hardly asking a lot if the knowledge can help save a life.
Or you can continue spending that time arguing the same old boring things on here for eternity.
Eff that!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
Jesus 80% of fell races are 5 to 8 miles long over baby hills. We're not wrestling tigers ffs!
What are the current kit requirements for said races?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
You guys are the experts, I'm just putting forward a new idea. Perhaps you could apply it to races in a certain class.
Think of it as extra CPD Stolly ;)
The experienced people would fly through it and it might save a life or two for the less experienced.
Hi Heathens, I agree with you that experience is the way to go, but I believe the certification route - esp the on-line one you describe - is the slippery path to a runners permit and wouldn't really achieve anything (...and that is an anathema to many fell runners minds...though I can only speak for me of course!)
All the online courses/tests I've ever done have been too basic to really test anyones real knowledge and understand, and moreover application in practice and certainly a Computer Based Training package would be hard pressed to test someone's abilities to find safety when they're lost in the e.g. howgills or a more wilder/hostile environ.
Races like the Ben have 'experience' qualification pre-requisites which I think are a better way to go as a 'qualification' for the tougher races rather than a training course, especially one which lets be honest, could be taken in the warmth, with a mate helping out. And I think I'm right in saying that the BNRA introduced this after their tragedy involving an inexperienced runner.
Can I not be serious about fell running without being a member of a club? If not:why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
I was being ironic: see my earlier post.
It's not perfect but if we're serious about saving lives, then surely more education is the way to go. It would only be an hour or so, annually or even every two years so it's not an overly arduous task.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stick
You can't account for everything but at least it would allow the basics to be taught, e.g. What to head for if lost, how to get your bearings, IDEAL KIT, etc etc. I'm not the expert in this area but I do a lot of online learning through work and some of the new courses are spot on. Many of them are video based ones that you can watch on your phone, ipad, tv so fairly convenient.Quote:
All the online courses/tests I've ever done have been too basic to really test anyones real knowledge and understand, and moreover application in practice and certainly a Computer Based Training package would be hard pressed to test someone's abilities to find safety when they're lost in the e.g. howgills or a more wilder/hostile environ.
If you want to get an idea of how this could be presented, google MOOC (Massive Open Online Course) which is basically University lectures delivered online. I've done a few of them and currently doing one on public speaking - some of them are really good.
There's no reason you couldn't retain this system for the tougher courses, in addition to the online course.Quote:
Races like the Ben have 'experience' qualification pre-requisites which I think are a better way to go as a 'qualification' for the tougher races rather than a training course, especially one which lets be honest, could be taken in the warmth, with a mate helping out. And I think I'm right in saying that the BNRA introduced this after their tragedy involving an inexperienced runner.
"Save a life or two" my arse.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
Exactly what I WOULDN'T like to see in fell running.
'Fell ruining' might be a better name for the sport the way things are developing.
Hi Heathens. I'm not against the principle of an online training course. I'm thinking back to how I learned my nav skills...started with a book (Mountaincraft - Langmuir) and worked it out myself, trial and error outdoors, days out with my partner in un-known places on nice days, and not nice days, medium fell races in the winter, longer races in the clag etc...a gradual progression. No doubt if Youtube had been around at the time I'd have looked on there too. The point I'm making is that a CBT can start on the right path.
So I agree, the FRA, SHR, WFRA should offer this as a service to members AND non-members alike. (Why not, we are good citizens ard care about all the people who enter all organisation races whether they're members of our parochial organisations or not).
But I don't agree with you on this being the foundation of a certification scheme... Educate yes, Govern no... :)
Trust me...I've seen his arse too many times at Bofra races and I too can vouch that is exactly what I wouldn't like to see in fell running...:oQuote:
Originally Posted by wharfeego
( Ay-up wharfee...out of hibernation again...! :cool: Good luck at Coniston. )
First - who gives the instruction to these athletes? We can see from the numerous different opinions expressed on this forum that our outlooks are quite varied.
Second - who monitors, trains and assesses the instructors?
Thirdly - who sits on "OffRoad", the quango set up to ensure that the quality of training given by the instructors is up to scratch?
Fourth cost. There's a cost to such initiatives and Scuba Diving is an industry, fell running isn't.
Yes I know you have indicated online, but online, offline, by correspondence, in an exam, it doesn't matter, it's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut that isn't even there.
This is not about Safety of Competitors. Without being blasé we have had very few incidents in Fell Running - roughly one fatality per decade and some knocks and trips like Amex and if it can happen to Amex, it can happen to anyone.
This is about Race organisers. They provide a service to the sport by hosting the vast array of events for us.
We have to do our utmost to ensure that as long as they do their best, they cannot be dragged through the court system by Joe Pasquale's mob even when mistakes are made by them or their team.
I as a competitor cannot see a moment in time when I would attempt to do that to an RO. But if I am not there to make the call, I can't vouch for my connections.
It's looking a bit saggy these days :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Stick
Exactly! (And he does seems to have put on an ENORMOUS amount of weight recently doesn't he. I think it's since he took up sushi...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Sorry Dave I wasn't implying that all U/A runners have no skill or experience just replying to the Heathens post about the FRA policing standards to all race entries when it can only communicate to FRA members, how does it reach U/A. sorry if I wasn't clearQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
Aye.!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Tell us wharfee.... what WOULD you like to see?Quote:
Originally Posted by wharfeego
Or are you just a sniper with no ideas of your own? Too afraid to put forward your own ideas to be shot down?
Come on.... Money on the table....
WP, google MOOC and see how many Universities are delivering mini university courses at minimal cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Course material delivered through videos / presentations using existing case studies (just need a decent presenter!) Examination would be multi-choice. Random 25 questions from a bank of 250 or so. 80% to pass
All done online. Minimal cost after the initial set up.
Questions set and agreed by volunteers with the required experience. I help set exam questions for the Chartered Insurance Institute (albeit paid) - it's not that difficult
None of this precludes you from running on the fells where you take responsibility for your own actions anyway
I'd like to see some common sense, there are too many know-alls commenting about this situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
Whatever ideas I might put forward will always be shot down.
I'm happy to leave the decisions to the FRA Committee, after all that is what they're there for, whether or not some people disagree with their ideas.
If you want to make a difference then get on the Committee.
I was quite an effective sniper years ago when I used to take out foxes at 300 yards with a .222 full-bore rifle, now I just shoot with a camera.
I haven't caught enough moles this week to put money on the table.
Off up tops to catch some moles now…now where's that risk assessment sheet...
So that's a no then. How does the saying go, "Put up or shut up"?
Join the FRA committee? Are you having a laugh? To be honest, I really don't care much for you, the FRA or Fell RACING in general, I get my enjoyment by running in the fells non-competitively. You know - 'the real spirit of fell running'.
I'm just sick of this thread going back and forth so thought I'd stick my head above the parapet and suggest something different. Not in a million years do I expect the FRA to take this up - it's just a discussion point. I also think that your faith in the FRA is rather misguided considering the complete hash they have made of things so far.
Your comment re risk assessment shows your chronic misunderstanding of what I'm putting forward for discussion & critique (and not for abuse from people who are quick to shoot from the lip but are impotent at the hip).
What does common sense look like? Come on wharfee.... Get involved
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
This thread just got interesting. I like your style of facilitation TH. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
Good post stick. Ok, so no certification but the principle is a good idea? 'Certification' could be optional but delivering the material could help save a life (ignore the naysayers like wharfee).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stick
So... rather than talk about it, let's make it happen....
I don't have the necessary hillside skills to create the course information although I am good at researching and more than happy to contribute by putting those skills to good use as well as technological skills.
This could be done independently of the FRA et al - just a series of short online videos offering mountainside survival tips and navigational skills. I'm sure there are videos out there, but this would just be to pull them all together.
Would need volunteers....any takers?