drug taking in sport

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Originally Posted by A.G

So he had a big engine, but without data on his economy, it doesn't prove he was at the human limit of running.

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The data is 27.30 for 10km and V02 of 87.The economy is implied in that information.

You're right it doesn't prove the limit of human ability.That limit can only be achieved with drugs!Besides if you really believed in what your saying, you'd have to apply that to the womens 10000m, an event you've conceded was set with the use of drugs.

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Originally Posted by A.G

So exceptional at 1500/5000 (olympic distances), but, not exceptional at 10,000 which is the distance in question.

How about the point about El Gs 1500 times?

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AG to be 4th or 5th fastest man at 10km, you have to be exceptional.All the runners in the world rankings over a period of about 20 years, were very close in terms of times.In came EPO, in about 1992 and over about 8 years the Mens 10km dropped by approx 50secs.

Have you watched that final yet?To say his slow run was because he ran heats is nonsense.I'm sure he ran 3.27 at one championship, with heats.

In the 2000 olympics he was treading water down the home straight, at a slow pace.Even Steve Cram 'couldn't believe it.' Cram still hasn't cottoned on because he still commentates.

I am trying to follow your argument here CL.

Correct me if I have misunderstood.

I believe one of the main things you are saying is that subutamol is an abused drug because asthmatics gain an unfair advantage due to the additional oxygen it enables them to utilise beyond what non asthmatics can. If so I can see the significance In the rather suspicious number of professional cyclists who claim to have asthma. I am disappointed in you copping out of the question as to whether Paula Radcliffe is a cheat - you said only she knows.

I understand your other point to be that the limit to how fast a human being can run was pretty much achieved with runners before the modern era eg. Aouita and that any significant improvement on such times is inevitably as a result of drugs.

I'm not trying to catch you out (although I don't think the first point relates to the second one unless they're all claiming to be asthmatics). I'm just trying to keep up.

I accept the womens WR is about 30s quicker than it should be, although I think if Radcliffe had had the perfect race in her prime she could have done it....the Munich Euro champs race in better conditions for example.

I had my Vo2 max lab tested as 76 which is pretty high. This doesn't say anything about my economy though, which is pretty poor and consequently only have a 10k pb of 34:08 (although this is probably also due to a lack of 10ks).

You could have a massive VO2 but if you weigh 20 stone are never going to run a fast 10k!

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Hello AG.The data is 27.30 for 10km and V02 of 87.The economy is implied in that information.

You're right, it doesn't prove the limit of human ability.That limit can only be achieved with drugs!Besides if you really believed in what you're saying, you'd have to apply that to the womens 10000m, an event you've conceded was set withthe use of drugs.

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Originally Posted by Chris

I am trying to follow your argument here CL.

Correct me if I have misunderstood.

I believe one of the main things you are saying is that subutamol is an abused drug because asthmatics gain an unfair advantage due to the additional oxygen it enables them to utilise beyond what non asthmatics can. If so I can see the significance In the rather suspicious number of professional cyclists who claim to have asthma. I am disappointed in you copping out of the question as to whether Paula Radcliffe is a cheat - you said only she knows.

I understand your other point to be that the limit to how fast a human being can run was pretty much achieved with runners before the modern era eg. Aouita and that any significant improvement on such times is inevitably as a result of drugs.

I'm not trying to catch you out (although I don't think the first point relates to the second one unless they're all claiming to be asthmatics). I'm just trying to keep up.

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We're beginning to understand each other!Yes to the main points above.Salbutamol does increase oxygen usage, buts thats not all.It also increases energy breakdown, and has a sparing effect on ones own adrenaline levels.It lasts for hours as well, which is why endurance athletes use it.

I've already answered the Paula Radcliffe scenario, as you well know.

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Originally Posted by A.G

I accept the womens WR is about 30s quicker than it should be, although I think if Radcliffe had had the perfect race in her prime she could have done it....the Munich Euro champs race in better conditions for example.

I had my Vo2 max lab tested as 76 which is pretty high. This doesn't say anything about my economy though, which is pretty poor and consequently only have a 10k pb of 34:08 (although this is probably also due to a lack of 10ks).

You could have a massive VO2 but if you weigh 20 stone are never going to run a fast 10k!

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AG thats why I mentioned Aouita.At about 14 he could run 8.15 for 3k, in football boots on a grass track, with no special training.He was about 8 stone at that time.

If an athlete can run 27.30 for 10k, he's at/or approaching the maximum of efficiency.

Good V02 AG.It seems your at/approaching your potential in terms of oxygen consumption.

Well as I understand it, your Vo2 changes very little with training, and is pretty much reached its limit fairly soon after only basic endurance training (I was probably over 60 untrained for e.g.). I think it is learning to run more efficiently that most people improve by. Of course with fells you can keep improving further, as 'efficiency' has a lot more dimensions due to the terrian.

On a personal note, I’d like to think I’ll end up with a PB of around 31:30 by the time I hit my peak. I think its possible due to the high V02 score and the fact I’ve got 10 or so years to play with. Also, while I'm not 8 stone/ 5 ft, I still have the correct build for it being reasonably lanky.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

AG thats why I mentioned Aouita.At about 14 he could run 8.15 for 3k, in football boots on a grass track, with no special training.He was about 8 stone at that time.

If an athlete can run 27.30 for 10k, he's at/or approaching the maximum of efficiency.

Good V02 AG.It seems your at/approaching your potential in terms of oxygen consumption.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

AG thats why I mentioned Aouita.At about 14 he could run 8.15 for 3k, in football boots on a grass track, with no special training.He was about 8 stone at that time.

If an athlete can run 27.30 for 10k, he's at/or approaching the maximum of efficiency.

Good V02 AG.It seems your at/approaching your potential in terms of oxygen consumption.

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It seems unproblematic to me that athletes on the 21st century will be running faster than say runners in the 1970s. Football players are fitter and stonger athletes/tennis players/gymnasts. Bedford (who is our example here) ran his world record unpaced, on his own in front of a tiny crowd and probably for very little money. It would have been a fair prediction in the circumstances that that world records for 10,000 metres would drop to below 26.30 within 35 years even when we didn't know the inpact the Africans would have.

I guess, although it is only a guess, that Bedford would love to be at his peak in 2007 and would rate his chances against the best of the Africans. Has he been asked the question?

This thread is the new Fell Ponies.

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Originally Posted by Chris

It seems unproblematic to me that athletes on the 21st century will be running faster than say runners in the 1970s. Football players are fitter and stonger athletes/tennis players/gymnasts. Bedford (who is our example here) ran his world record unpaced, on his own in front of a tiny crowd and probably for very little money. It would have been a fair prediction in the circumstances that that world records for 10,000 metres would drop to below 26.30 within 35 years even when we didn't know the inpact the Africans would have.

I guess, although it is only a guess, that Bedford would love to be at his peak in 2007 and would rate his chances against the best of the Africans. Has he been asked the question?

This thread is the new Fell Ponies.

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Chris just been looking at athletes who've tested positive for epo at the top end.I don't follow world athletics, and haven't done for years bar a couple of races .So I don't know whos who and whats what.

Looking at the list of athletes and their performances, its actually as bad as I expected.One kenyan steeplechaser ran 7.53, but then tested positve.Another 1500m runner(kenyan again)with a time of 3.26.On and on, with women testing positive for it as well.

Chris I'll give you a prediction for the Oympic womens marathon next year, without knowing any of the women apart from Paula Radcliffe.1st Chinese 2nd Chinese 3rd Chinese.Save this Chris.

ha i like it
ive been thinking about the chinese and the olympics for some time
this thread had been very informative