Bolts on Broad Stand

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Originally Posted by IainR

I don't think there is anything that wrong with using ropes, as long as you are just using it for security, not pulling up on the rope, being pulled up on the rope, using a ladder, creating steps in the rope etc.....I think then you are simplifying the route.

I'm not a huge fan of marking routes with cairns but especially the use of any paint, even if it's biodegradable. It just trivilises the route. Navigation, route knowledge is part of the challenge.

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The only problem as an outsider that I'd have with this is the fact that the vast majority of challengers who complete the BGR are virtually reliant on their pacers / helpers in terms of route knowledge and navigation thus negating a large part of the "challenge".....

I've just picked up on this thread for the first time - not read through it all.

But my initial thought was

"Well that would be an interesting place for Usain to take on Tyson Gay!"

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I've just picked up on this thread for the first time - not read through it all.

But my initial thought was

"Well that would be an interesting place for Usain to take on Tyson Gay!"

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We should be a double act at the comedy store! You up for it ? ;)

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

The only problem as an outsider that I'd have with this is the fact that the vast majority of challengers who complete the BGR are virtually reliant on their pacers / helpers in terms of route knowledge and navigation thus negating a large part of the "challenge".....

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That's a valid point. I pace on quite a lot of Paddy Rounds and tend to help people I know have made the effort to pace other people on the round or recce it and therefore do have the route knowledge themselves.

Still, with pacers, you aren't altering the route for others.

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

We should be a double act at the comedy store! You up for it ? ;)

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I'll be Eddie and you can be Supersonic ;)

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Originally Posted by IainR

I don't think there is anything that wrong with using ropes, as long as you are just using it for security, not pulling up on the rope, being pulled up on the rope, using a ladder, creating steps in the rope etc..

I think then you are simplifying the route. 'Leave only footprints, take only pictures..', I think its a good saying to use for the round. The 'ethics' of the round are defined by British mountain traditions as much as Bob Graham or the BG club. In the UK, generally, we don't bolt mountain crags, we dont have via ferrata.

The argument of what is acceptable can go on forever, I'm not a huge fan of marking routes with cairns but especially the use of any paint, even if it's biodegradable. It just trivialises the route. Navigation, route knowledge is part of the challenge.

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Well, paintmarked routes, ladders and steps have got me to places in the Alps I wouldn't have reached otherwise (at least, not without a climbing partner and some gear). But we have so few truly hard-to-reach places in Britain* that I guess our tradition makes sense, although it does seem a bit precious sometimes. But these points have been made before. Round and round, as Skennaugh said.

* a possible exception being St Kilda's Stac Lee, which has or had a peg :D

We do actually have the odd 'painted path', like in the alps, in Snowdonia we have the 'red spot' path off Glyder Fawr (the path is marked by red painted spots from the summit to Pen y Pass), seems a strange method for such a minor path..never heard what the logic was behind the paint because the usual method for around here is finger posts or cairns..

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

The only problem as an outsider that I'd have with this is the fact that the vast majority of challengers who complete the BGR are virtually reliant on their pacers / helpers in terms of route knowledge and navigation thus negating a large part of the "challenge".....

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As has been said thats up to them, it doesn't affect anyone else but bolts, ropes, paint, cairns and reflective tape do :rolleyes:

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St Kilda's Stac Lee, which has or had a peg

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I'd take it out, make it harder for anyone going up there to do it ;)

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Originally Posted by Baggins

As has been said thats up to them, it doesn't affect anyone else but bolts, ropes, paint, cairns and reflective tape do :rolleyes:




I'd take it out, make it harder for anyone going up there to do it ;)

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Bolts, ropes, paint, cairns and reflective tape having an adverse effect on others? Geez, if thats the total of your earthly concerns combined, count yourself fortunate....I mean.......

Next time I'm up a mountain, I'll add a big stone or two to the nearest cairn in honour of you....I might even take some reflective tape to make a few arrows.

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

Bolts, ropes, paint, cairns and reflective tape having an adverse effect on others? Geez, if thats the total of your earthly concerns combined, count yourself fortunate....I mean.......

Next time I'm up a mountain, I'll add a big stone or two to the nearest cairn in honour of you....I might even take some reflective tape to make a few arrows.

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I've got to support Baggins view in this one - cairns on summits are perhaps OK but most of the rest should probably be kicked over and scattered, not added to! I've done a triathlon where the organisers feel it is necessary to mark the entire run route - my view is that if people need the route to be marked they should not be up there in the first place. And it did affect everyone else on the hill that day by the visual intrusion. I think I mentioned it before on another thread but there is an account of a bolt (or maybe it was just a peg?) being placed on a difficult route on Gimmer, back in the fifties. Someone (might have been Brown or Whillans?) climbed to it, spat on it and carried on by to complete the route. Some might feel bolting is justified by the difficulty or danger of a particular route or move - but everybodys concept of the difficulty is different and if we accept that we could end up bolting everything from very low grade routes and up to enable anyone to do them, and next time we might be discussing whether or not to do Scafell on the BG via Central Buttress! Ridiculous I know, but I personally fiind climbing Gable from Wasdale a little hard, perhaps someone could make a better path?