PPE in other trades is the property of the workers and they look after it themselves.
Gloves, screens, overalls, ear defenders, safety glasses, googles etc
PPE is not new to the engineering or construction world.
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PPE in other trades is the property of the workers and they look after it themselves.
Gloves, screens, overalls, ear defenders, safety glasses, googles etc
PPE is not new to the engineering or construction world.
As to Ambleside "refusing to accept" its share of people - second home owners - er - it's in the legislation: 2020/350. Nothing to do with Ambleside, or any other second home spot.
To resolve the argument between Oracle and MikeT, I propose:
How to respond to COVID19 without damaging the economy or upsetting the medics
Persons of a sensitive disposition should not read further. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
1. Let all activity carry on as normal; no disruption to economic activity, education, sport, etc.
2. Anyone displaying COVID19 symptoms is banned from hospitals. So the NHS can carry on all its normal work without disruption or the need for extra PPE.
3. The only extra demand on public expenditure is to employ the people touring the streets with trucks, shouting "Bring out your dead", and digging mass graves.
4. Since most deaths are among the elderly, pension fund managers are happy: there is little, if any, downturn in their investments, while the number of pensioners they are paying out to reduces substantially.
5. Richard Dawkins writes a bestseller explaining the role of pandemics in evolution by natural selection (assuming Richard Dawkins survives the pandemic; he's quite old).
6. The Tory government gets voted out at the next General Election, because many habitual Tory voters were rather fond of their elderly relatives who died.
The skiing ties in with my earlier post. It had to get to the ski resorts, and the China - Italy travel portal was in full swing in January, mixing with many of those taking skiing holidays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
Very good. :)
Multiply Belgium’s figures by a factor of SIX to scale to ours.
You get close on 45000, almost double ours. Way higher. So care homes are not explanation.
English population density at 400 is way higher than other big European countries , and of lesser states Belgium is the only one that gets close. Germany way less.
Belgium did massive testing. So that is not a panacea.
Sweden did far less, and is not suffering disproportionately. Poor countries have done little , they can’t afford it, and have no mass Pandemic.
Mike- you are not studying the arguments that clearly disagree with the usual “ U.K. government is crap” hypothesis. It’s your peers calling the shots.
Countries are not comparable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
I think you touched on the real responsibility in an earlier post. If the Chinese Government had acted more swiftly to eradicate the virus when they knew about it instead of deliberately covering it up and misleading the world, then this thread wouldn't even exist. These are the people that truly have blood on their hands. Just occasionally Trump says something that is right. And this is one of those occasions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
The FT estimated 41,000 deaths over a week ago.
https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-...3-e239799fa6ab
NOT A LOT CHANGES
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_s...United_Kingdom
https://www.foxnews.com/health/death...ious-estimates
https://www.britannica.com/event/inf...c-H1N1-of-2009
Best just face it no matter how much people Pontificate and speculate it is far to early for any answers, far better to listen to and abide by the advice given to us by experts and wait for history to reveal the answers as to how nature has given us a good kicking and hopefully learn from the experience (although I doubt that will happen). After all there are people with far more factual knowledge (than anybody on any public forum) that are working on the crisis and hopefully steering us in the right direction again only history will let us know.
Love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
It is shades of yes minister
The hospital that opened with no patients disturbing good process or workflow was apparently a reality. The writers of yes minister said all the incidents were based loosely on real events, and the really absurd ones were the closest to reality, including that one!
Hi Stagger, in my exp in the engineering industry ppe is provided by the company, you should have the knowledge , training and experience to use it, if you don't use it and come to harm you may be liable to be disciplined, if you use it and come to harm because it was not up to the job, you may be able to seek compensationQuote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
Hi StephQuote:
Originally Posted by Steph
The larger companies will provide but not the smaller ones.
A lot wouldn't even provide overalls now. A welder usually has his own screen, gloves and overalls.
Safety glasses, visors and ear protection are always provided.
Claiming against your company is not usually a smart move either.
I'd be incredibly surprised if any "fully employed" person in an engineering company was asked to provide their own PPE.... perhaps going in as self-employed or as a "contract" employee then yes...
I'm generally office-based now but have worked in various engineering roles for 20 years (oil&gas/M&E/site based/office based/QS/project management/site maintenance engineer), and i've never had to provide my own PPE (unless i've done so out of choice).
If you're a full employee of a company and they can't even be bothered to provide you the correct PPE then i'd suggest they might not necessarily be the be the greatest company to work for.
I've been lucky then as the companies I have worked for or been involved with all provided ppe
Now where is the popcorn?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
HSE leaflet INDG174 makes it clear that not only is the employer responsible for providing PPE, but also that an employer cannot charge an employee for providing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
Admittedly we are in medical diagnostics not engineering, but all PPE has always been the responsibility of the company to provide. All staff are trained on its use (and safe lab practice) at induction and may be subject to disciplinary action if they don't use it correctly.
It applies to all workplaces, and there are a variety of additional requirements for more specialist areas. I am aware of the difficulties of procuring ppe in the quantities required and that the procurement teams will be trying their best, just felt a few posts were maybe implying the medical and care staff all know what they signed up for and to get on with it, a bit harsh, in this day and age no-one should be harmed by their work, and my general dissatisfaction with the unfair modern world we live in.
Everyone seems to be assuming that the NHS staff who have died from the virus were infected in the workplace. No doubt some of them will have picked it up elsewhere and may have even passed it on to colleagues.
Of course the BBC and press in general are not interested in investigating such matters.
Might be a strange question,
But why didn't our country send all virus cases to nightingale hospitals and leave regular NHS services free from the virus?
I don't think the Nightingale's were operational early enough to take the first cases Stagger.
BTW. Have you heard Max Boyces coronavirus poem " Just The Tide Went Out" as it is worth a listen.
I'd post it on here if I knew how to!
It is my understanding that the Nightingale Hospitals are not quite hi-tec enough to take the really ill Covid patients, so those were going to end up in ordinary hospitals anyway - so separating Covid and non Covid patients was not going to be possible. The Nightingales are overflow, either for ongoing active care, or for palliation. And the patients need to be accompanied by staff from the patient's hospital, and to meet quite tight criteria if for active care - arterial line, central line etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
The last thing the Government wanted was people dying because the NHS was overwhelmed. Deaths in the process of acquiring herd immunity - called not fully suppressing the curve - were initially felt to be acceptable.
Pure speculation as are Belgium numbers. Nobody can control with speculation. It needs something measurable in present not hindsight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Using the FT non methodology , all countries would have to throw a dart in a board to uprate Their case numbers too. How do you control with numbers from a random number generator?
Some of the press coming from Belgium has seen their MikeT s complaining about their methodology saying that too few are properly verified, many were circumstantial not proven causal. There is no right answer: the distinction is philosophical not scientific. How many patients die with covid or because of covid? Camels and straws. When titanic sank, several bulkheads had overflowed. It is academic which one sank it, it was the combination.
The government needs a reliable measure for relative numbers.
The Reality of the number of cases is also underestimated by a factor of ten or more.
It would not matter what the government did. Part of the medical community would grumble.
England is still the densest population in Europe other than micro states. Belgium second of lesser states.
As for Ambleside, I just citd that as example of country side generally, the vitriolic rhetoric coming from many residents about covidiots is a disgrace. The standing order on second homes was wrong.
I notice The first question fielded yestErday by Boris was concerned resident from Cornwall telling Boris not allow tourists back in case it gave her extra risk.
Hidden subtext “ I’m allright jack. I have a guaranteed income regardless of COVID, so all that matters is keeping me safe. I don’t give a toss if half of my neighbour have no income whose solvency is reliant on some level tourist trade, they can starve for all I care”
Selfish b!tch was my thought when I heard her.
There is an obvious moral hazard with COVID.
The entire public sector gets paid whether or not they work. It is too easy to stay at home. For that reason all public sector salaries should have been cut to help pay for covid, so they too had a vested interest in declaring all clear.
As a result all sorts of facilities are shut that simply should not be. I could list many but take city dumps. Net result they “ self isolate “ in massive numbers because they can, not because they should.
It reminds me of the ( not insignificant) sheet ice problem a few years ago in January. Broadly: all who got paid regardless , whether they work or not, decided it was far too dangerous to go into work, so all the schools for example shut completely stuffing the parents forced to stay with kids.
All those reliant on getting to my house in order to get paid, from milkmen , delivery drivers and self employed tradesmen ( working here at that time) , all made it without problem. Clearly a moral hazard.
The schools should in my view not be shut either for covid, because of downside on parents forced to look after kids, so unnecessarily shutting the economy. I do not think many are taking that problem seriously enough , and the knock on effect to such as pensioners, including the government not taking it seriously enough. But then they too will get paid regardless.
Would have been hard to use them during the initial influx of patients, unless hospitals were overflowing. Even nursing staff have to become acquainted with where everything is, how it works and how the disease itself operates. Also what other equipment may be needed there and stocks, it all sort of makes sense in the long term plans.
I'm still convinced that the next step will be to open the Nightingales to new arrivals, have a dedicated staff there and reopen the NHS hospitals again for regular treatments - hopefully keeping the virus away.
I read an article yesterday that said there is no reported case of a child passing coronavirus to an adult.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...idence-review/
"No child has been found to have passed coronavirus to an adult, a review of evidence in partnership with the Royal College of Paediatricians has found.
Major studies into the impact of Covid-19 on young children show it is likely that they "do not play a significant role" in spreading the virus and are significantly less likely to become infected than adults.
While experts have said more evidence is needed, they note that there has not been a single case of a child under 10 transmitting the virus even in contact tracing carried out by the World Health Organisation (WHO) in January and February."
The case it mentions here is fascinating.
"Among the evidence is a study of a nine-year-old British boy who contracted coronavirus in a French Alps but did not pass it on despite having contact with more than 170 people at three schools.
The boy, among the cases linked to Steve Walsh, the first Briton to test positive, also had influenza and a common cold which he passed to both of his siblings – but neither picked up Covid-19."
My sister has Chron's disease and is therefore in one on the vulnerable groups of people required to shield themselves. She is terrified of the schools reopening and her 10 year old son picking up the virus and passing it on to her. If the above is true, then it would appear she would have less need to worry. There would be little or no risk if primary schools at least reopened. Still, as the article makes clear, more evidence is required.
This has been refuted by a Paediatrician in a twitter thread - something about the "no child" bit being selectively quoted and the single paper it is related to being unsatisfactory in some respects - though having said that he agrees that children don't seem to be significant spreaders compared to adults. I will try to find the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
Alasdair Munro: " First, this news headline is wrong
They read our excellent review, and took a quote from a single article (joint WHO/China commission) out of our entire review for the headline
Children almost certainly DO transmit COVID-19"
Children with inflammatory bowel disease seem quite safe:
Results:
Eight PIBD children had COVID-19 globally, all with mild infection without needing hospitalization despite treatment with immunomodulators and/or biologics. No cases have been reported in China and South Korea but biologic treatment has been delayed in 79 children, of whom 17 (22%) had exacerbation of their IBD. Among the Porto group members, face-to-face appointments were often replaced by remote consultations but almost all did not change current IBD treatment. Ten guidance points for clinicians caring for PIBD patients in epidemic areas have been endorsed with consensus rate of 92-100%.
Conclusions:
Preliminary data for PIBD patients during COVID-19 outbreak are reassuring. Standard IBD treatments including biologics should continue at present through the pandemic, especially in children who generally have more severe IBD course on one hand, and milder SARS-CoV-2 infection on the other.
As to adults, not sure.
I strongly suspect that the concept of the Nightingale hospitals was only dreamed up after the virus hit. The initial moves were all about comandeering the private sector facilities to help. Since the Nightingale units got built the private sector facilities have sat idle. Would be interested to know the truth!
I'm sure the plan is to use the Nightingales to keep the hospitals covid free zones. But of course it takes time to source, train and activate the staff you need to embrace the extra capacity.
Funny how the number of deaths was so important in the briefings when they were relatively low, now that they are grim we are told they cannot be interpreted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
My sister is 45 and she received a letter saying that she had to shield herself for 12 weeks - it is clearly going to be a lot longer than that now. The issue I understand is that the immunosuppressant drugs that Chron's sufferers have to take to control their condition put them at increased risk of complications with Covid-19.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
Firstly I feel I should apologise to Oracle. I had a go at you on a Brexit thread. I've been reading a lot of your posts and you seem to be an intelligent man who knows what he's talking about. Sorry for being a dick.
Anyway, I thought I'd throw in my tuppence worth from a Skye perspective.
I'm a Mental health nurse. We've been working pretty much as per usual but with distancing/remote working. I'm also a BnB owner. Highland region has, so far been affected pretty lightly. There's no problems with PPE, nobody is being swamped. There are cases but it's all as expected and everyone is coping.
The rhetoric in the community though is appalling. I've been embarrassed and horrified by the actions of some pitch fork weilding idiots. Signs up telling tourists to keep away, cars with foreign plates being accosted, second home owners being villified. The level of hypocrisy is huge. So many locals have moved their grown up kids home from the cities to 'keep them safe'. When challenged they say its OK as they're 'local'. People posting online about how much they're enjoying Lockdown as there are no tourists about-just like the old days! No thought about the huge numbers of businesses struggling and going under ours included. No thoughts about the kids trapped at home or people with mental health problems deteriorating due to isolation.
Our local Care Home has just tested positive. 8 out of 13 staff positive plus several residents so far. The witch hunt has begun about 'who brought it here' it must be an outsider.
" The standing order on second homes was wrong. "
You need to take that up with the Government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neilly
It's a resentment that you can see everywhere, not just on Skye... Wales, even the Lakes where i've borne the brunt of it on one memorable night out... in Spain when you go into the local's areas of towns and see the signs saying "no tourists" on the bars...
It's always going to be there... a bit of resentment that an area needs the financial input of outsiders to survive, and they don't like it... i think it usually falls into an uneasy truce... those who embrace it and happily work in bars/restaurants/b&b's/etc, and those who don't like it grudgingly acknowledge that tourists keep some economy's afloat... but we as outsiders have a part to play, i.e not trashing the place and showing a bit of respect.
Until something like this comes along and tensions boil over a little...
I will take up the vitriolic rhetoric of some country communities with those communities who have revelled in doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Take the shops that say "locals only" when those staying in their weekend home are clearly locals.
Many do not have the simple life. They exist in a city box for weekdays, then go home to live at the weekend. Some notable fell runners do just that. It is moronic of the local communities to say these are second home owners even if they spend more time in the city. They have to , just to pay bills. They only exist in the city, they live for the weekends. The late great Steve Cliffe was just such.
Not to mention paint and paint stripper poured on cars,of people that normally rent, who have decided to live out lockdown in rented cottages far from anyone.
Then what about all the unlawful path closures signs?
As far as I am concerned the signs that say "shut except for locals", the same signs will magically reappear in the middle of the tourist season on the very same shops. Two can play at that game.
I accept the law. I do not accept the behaviour of the communities.
The worst of them will never see another penny of mine.
Higher mortality rate in poorer areas.
Mmmmmm
Wonder if there's a higher crime rate in similar areas.
Not rocket science, it has been shown that life expectancy is lower by x years in poorer communities and areas all over the country. The reasons are fairly obvious to do with lifestyle and health. It would be newsworthy if there were a lower mortality rate in poorer areas.
Correlation does not imply cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
The possible causality is population density ( ie lower social distance) which is high in poor areas.
Or following your thinking stagger, maybe crime causes covid :-) since the two correlate!
I think that most people in the Lakes accept that tourists are needed for survival, and hopefully make them welcome - those nice little shops/pubs/cafes cannot survive on local trade only. But it is nice when, in the quieter months of the year, most of them have gone, so we can walk on the pavements, and not have to drive on those same pavements to avoid badly parked cars. Having gone from a frequent visitor - for decades - to a permanent resident, I have seen both sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
There have been no problems "fitting in" - we try to contribute by shopping locally, and by volunteering - my partner in social care/food bank, and I coach with AAC juniors, and try to support the vets. What people say behind our backs of course we may never know. Our neighbours are lovely - one chap nearby has lived in the same street for over 80 years - though he did move from one side of the road to the other!
Interestingly me and Mrs WP went up to my brothers caravan on March 21st.
We just walked, kept ourselves to ourselves and returned on Monday 23rd.
On the 22nd we walked down to Grange from Kents Bank and back. It was quiet. The only place open on the front was an ice cream booth.
We both agreed that the chances of catching it up here were slim and we were actually more likely in our home area.
The site closed on Monday, the day we left.
I was perusing the mapping in the Telegraph yesterday.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...istics-reveal/
Turns out Grange and the Cartmel peninsula has been the Cumbrian hotspot and along with Ulverston. They've had 12 deaths by 17th April compared to 4 in my own area.