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I'm toying with the idea of having another bash at the Skyline this year as a prelude to the 3P but i don't want to enter just yet as i'm totally lacking in fitness - does anyone know how many have entered and what are the chances of it filling up this year?
Also can anyone guarantee better weather than last year??
can it be any worse...?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BigO
Entering a race like the Skyline without navigational skills is going against the organisers requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Attitudes like this probably cause the organisers more worry than necessary and will create overreactions like the mobile phone requirement.
Would you enter this race without adequate body cover? What makes you think that NS is any less of a requirement?
For my sins I have been put in charge of the Kit check at the Skyline:eek:
and there will be at least one
also spot checks at the start and finish.
So just remind every one;
Full windproof and waterproof body cover including hood, O/T.
Hat, Gloves, Whistle, Map and Compass, Phone (with battery and sim card);)
emergency food.
Please arrive in time as I'm running also.
Mountain rescue tel no 999. another number may be given out at registration.
Around 180 entries have been recieved so far so we can't have scared too many people off last year.;)
Thug, I don't think Chris is saying that. He's saying What is NS? is it 1) being able to get your self safely off a hill, or is it 2) being able to follow a route, alone, in thick clag?
If it's 2 then I reckon a good 50% don't have it, if it's 1 I reckon most do.
1) is the most important factor. 2) is nice to have, but I'd be suprised if many runners could get them selves around a tricky course in cloud with noone to follow.
If you rely on following and luck to get around the course of a race, then I suggest you would be just as reliant on these things when you find you need to get off the hill - the only difference being that you will be cold, tired, injured, lost or maybe all four.
Nav skills aren't just nice to have, they're essential, and not just for the race. If you think that going downhill is all it takes to get somewhere safe, read "Judith's Run".
First time ever, I agree with YT.:eek:
NS means you are competant to get round the fells (race route) in all conditions.
Sense may prevail sometimes and you may decide to navigate off the tops.
If you do not feel you have the adequate skills, DON'T ENTER.
You put ourself in danger and lots of other people as well.
Thug, seeing as my wife and I run the navigation courses for the WFRA you'd think I could navigate myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug
In the skyline? Down hill? Yes, more important would be to follow a calculated bearing down hill. But when did I say going down hill blindly was a solution?
Outside of the highlands its not a bad technique to use.
And I disagree. Look at a race like Glen Clova. To navigate that in clag would take some skill, to get off in clag and back to the glen would be far far easier. Anyone with basic skills will be able to get themselves to safety, but I'd be very suprised if most runners could follow that route, in clag, with noone to follow.
You also miss my point. By a country mile. I asked, like Chris did, it depends on how you define Nav skills. I'd say basic nav skills are essential, but skills to follow a complext race route, alone in clag?
If you think most runners could do that then I'm suprised.
[quote=PlumBum;98067]
NS means you are competant to get round the fells (race route) in all conditions.
quote]
I think very few runners have this. I think most could get themselves off a race and back down safely using limited skills, but I think way less than half could navigate a (complex) route alone.
Navigational Skills must surely be adequate for the race in question.
This particular route is the Edale Skyline. Bits of it can be very complex in mist - as folk have found out in the past.
If your skills aren't up to it then you cannot fulfil the organisers requirements, and you should not enter.
It's this wishy washy "I'll be alright if I get behind someone in a local pennine vest" kind of mentality which forces the poor organiser to insist on things like mobies.
My view is you start a race / event to finish it , except in the most difficult conditions where a number of planned escape routes are a back up, and a good level of navigational skill is essential for either scenario.
Sense has to prevail in the worst conditions, I remember some years ago on the Kentmere Horseshoe, snow driving uphill around High Street, a number of us decided to stick together to get down safely, it so happened the best route down was to continue the race.
Only later did we find out there was a fatality, an experienced female runner missed the summit and was brought down later that evening.
No one can afford to take chances with life.
No, it'd be much better to get behind someone in a local dark peak vest (Apologies pennine folks... ;) )Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug
Just got my confirmation through. I will be following people...not for the route you understand, just because I'm slow.:o
All the best - Raymond
So you are saying that NS means being able to navigate the route (which may require quite advanced skills) and not being able to get off the hill (which would require basic skills).
That's what I don't understand, this neccessity to complete previous races. Which means nothing about navigation skills. I was speaking to a race organiser about experience recently and he wasn't overly impressed with people entering one long race with no running experience, but with 10-20 years mountaineering experience. Personally I'd rather be up on the hill with the guy with the mountaineering experience than the runner. In my short career running i bet I've used a map on very few occassions.Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumBum
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
NS means being able to navigate both the course, and any escape routes you may need to use.
Implying that the skills needed to escape the race are not as advanced as doing the race is not a sensible thing to do - inexperienced people on this forum may well believe you.
On the Skyline?
Crowhill...a couple of things...firstly if its normal weather conditions I doubt you'll see a Dark Peak vest, or any vest for that matter unless its over the top of 3 other layers!!
Secondly a few years back most of the front end of the race went wrong shortly after Ringing Roger in clag and instead of going round the edge path in the direction of Winn Hill ended up going towards the middle of Kinder 'led' , if my memory serves me correctly, by a number of Dark Peakers including one of the organisers!!!
So don't assume just because someobody might be 'local' they know where they are going!!
My navigational skills (which I'd call average) have been 'honed' by solo running and getting lost.... alot. So (weather permitting) I'd recommend this practical approach to everyone as a way of skilling up ;)
In theory too my navigation and map reading has always been good but there's a huge difference between theory and practise, especially when you're actually somewhere completely different on the map to where you think you are.
In a funny way my own concern in a race is my full blooded need to finish the race come what may - part of me wonders whether its this that might one day be my downfall, rather than getting lost and being unable to navigate.
As for not being able to take chances in life - well sorry but (within reason) I disagree.
I seem to read here we are agreeing.
The difference comes in the interpretation of our statements.
I have been known in the past as a head less chicken but I am still here to absorb more P**s taking.
Nav skills include getting lost, but not panicking, and being able to determine where you are lost to either get back on track or get down safely.
Wether this experience is from running on the fells or from mountaineering makes no difference.
The level of ability does.
Agreed, on the Skyline, turn right at anytime and drop into Edale (presuming you are still on the route), there is not the same dangers as some more mountainous regions so the level of skill could be lower but still needs to be adequate for the conditions that may be encountered.
Putting the Skyline to one side a moment.
I believe and I'll bet IainR agrees that people (Walkers and runners) don't get the map out enough. When you need to look at a map it's usually too late. Why wait till the clags down to open the map.
The number of times I've been on a hill on a fine sunny day when you can see for miles and some one has said can you show me where we are on the map please leaves me stunned. These people aren't lost they can see where they are going but can't relate it to a map. What better time to have the map out following the terrain and practicing your skill. Even more so in bad weather. There is nothing more reasuring on a hill with inexperinced people with the clag down than saying we should pass a stream/wall junction etc in 100ms etc and then it appear a couple of minutes later.it's not magic just good practice.
I think I'll go have a cup of tea.....
I don't know what you are talking about, I've been with you on Bleaklow and you've sniffed the clag and said we need to be a bit further right to pick up this trod:D :D :pQuote:
Originally Posted by PlumBum
Totally agree here. I think runners are far worse for this. When walking I like to keep the map out, when running I tend to stick it away, but racing is full of taking gambles. If they pay off you run the route no issue, if you don't navigate and you lose the route then it will cost you time, which is fine as long as you don't panic. Like following someone, most of us have done it, and gained time from it, but most of us will have followed someone and they've turned around and asked those dreaded words 'which way?' I follow people but realise if they turn around and say that then I only have myself to blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
If you did want to do it next year and do plenty of recce's this year where would you get the course details from?
Here.Quote:
Originally Posted by novice
Thanks David, is there similar for Kinder Downfall?Quote:
Originally Posted by david
Details of all the Hayfield races here.Quote:
Originally Posted by novice
Well speaking as last year's organiser, we lost over £500 on the race, so I don't think the odd pound to cover the costs (or minimise the loss) is very much to ask
As someone who has never organised anything I have to say I'm amazed that an event with 500 entries could lose money, let alone such a large amount. I don't doubt you for a single second, I'm simply amazed at your financial loss in such a well attended race where everyone paid whatever the entry fee was. Bloody good day out mind
You need to take lessons from the Trunce;) , charge £1.00 (£0.20 field fund) per race, run it 9 times in the year and have plenty money left to give to local charities.Quote:
Originally Posted by loxleychris
Seriously though, not many places you can get so much fun for 4 hours for £11.
Are you planning a fast one this year :pQuote:
Originally Posted by PlumBum
For the simple reason that we made a decision to keep the entry fee down plus we had to fork out for the bogs and other unknowns, we could have charged £15 and made a profit but we didn't!Quote:
Originally Posted by FellMonster
Run it slowly and get better value for your money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slippery Stones
And.... it's only when you try (or fall into) & start to organise events & races...
do you start to realise its a big (& sometimes) expensive ask....!!!
OK, fell running is wonderfully simple.... fell racing can be/is the most amazing fun!
At the sharp end of organising, be it small/big.... its fab fun too...?!
And, when it just gets that little bit bigger & bigger... or more tricky & complex.. and dangerous....
(which is why love it, as "IT"s' become so absent - in peoples lives)
the doing stuff & organising stuff... can be/get equally tough & tougher...
Than most things that fell runners do/dont & but/could do ...
(so I guess.... pay up & shut up.... or maybe just have a trot on the wilder side.. there is plenty out there)
Forget the moan... enjoy the race...!
Got my confirmation email, March is going to be a busy month!
Right on, luvver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luv Shack
A classic race over great country (in every respect) - one to do and enjoy.
Sorry to hear that last year's spectacular version made a loss. The cost of dibber technology, no doubt!!
Will do as good as I can SS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slippery Stones
Try to plan as little as possible, take it as it comes and ultimately don't follow Jim Fulton (soz Jim).
Hi Folks
Does anyone know if the Harvey Dark Peak map would cover all of the race area?
I have o/s but would prefer to use Harvey if the Dark Peak one is suitable?
Thanks
I assume its this map you have "HARVEY Superwalker map at 1:25,000 scale" and yes it does cover the area.
Thanks for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfella
At the mo I only have an ordnance survey map, but will now sort out a Harvey.