UKA British Fell & Hill Relays

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Originally Posted by dylan

navigational skills are an essential part of a fell runners set of skills.
why?well what if the mist/clag comes down,what do you do?
follow others or get your map and compass(which you have in your bum bag)and use.
it is a basic requirement on the grounds of self preservation and a duty you owe to your family and the race organiser to ensure your safe return.
please read the introduction to your fra fixtures calendar,page 9.

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I`d say that most fellrunners have never used their map & compass in an actual race (i think that i can only recall using it once in the 15 years that i`ve been at it) although i dont condone not carrying them though.

Well I've used mine quite a few times.

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Originally Posted by rocksteady

I`d say that most fellrunners have never used their map & compass in an actual race (i think that i can only recall using it once in the 15 years that i`ve been at it) although i dont condone not carrying them though.

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Rs I don't think you've been fell running I think you've been doing Cross country;). I did a night navigation fell race tonight with dark peak. probably 40-50 runners out, I can say with out fear of contradiction that the fastest runners did not neccessarily migrate to the front where as the the faster end runners who could navigate were at the front.

As to not using a map whilst running...... I'm lost for words, my map is out on most races even on sunny clear days. It's certainly used at least twice a month minimum and more at this time with all the night runs we do which is perfect practice for running in mist.

I believe it was Tim W that mentioned Wasdale early as a race with a Fixed course as people had run it for years. There were a large number of runners who went astray this year, many were local and had done the route many times!!!


Good hunting;):D

i once ran a championship race in scotland(sorry cant remeber which one)
was not happy with route the other runners were following,got my map out and saw they were heading way off course,
so corrected my route,further down the field found i was some 400 yards ahead off said pack,
who had corrected themselves after seeing me head off,
I then made a poor route line,the others who had decided to follow started moaning about where i was heading!
I corrected my line again and was verbally abused for 'leading them on a crap route!'
quite a few runners got lost that day,people who normally finish way ahead of me.
lord knows what would have happened that day if the clag would have dropped.
i keep my hand in by running in new locations as often as poss,i plan with map,then run with map in hand,compass at ready.
had some greatr runs in some ace locations.some rubbish too!

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Rs I don't think you've been fell running I think you've been doing Cross country;). I did a night navigation fell race tonight with dark peak. probably 40-50 runners out, I can say with out fear of contradiction that the fastest runners did not neccessarily migrate to the front where as the the faster end runners who could navigate were at the front.

As to not using a map whilst running...... I'm lost for words, my map is out on most races even on sunny clear days. It's certainly used at least twice a month minimum and more at this time with all the night runs we do which is perfect practice for running in mist.

I believe it was Tim W that mentioned Wasdale early as a race with a Fixed course as people had run it for years. There were a large number of runners who went astray this year, many were local and had done the route many times!!!


Good hunting;):D

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If folk would only listen, I'm not doubting the virtues of navigational skills on a misty day at Wasdale. Of course they're an advantage! But, and this is my point, the organisers of such races are not deliberately trying to test runners' navigation. They just consider us (as responsible mountain people) big enough and ugly enough to be able to find our way round routes without being nursemaided. It saves them flagging the whole route which would be some job at Wasdale! But if you ask a marshal which way you had to go, he'd tell you. Or help you as best he could.

Orienteering (including the nav leg at the FRAs) on the other hand is a totally different kettle of fish; in that even on a clear day the whole point is to test your navigation, and that's the difference between the two disciplines. The marshals wouldn't tell you the way if you asked, for besides, you can't even recce the course!

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Originally Posted by Grouse

And it usually becomes more more mountainous the more lost you get. :)

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we did get lost didnt we
i love navving it gets men talking

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Originally Posted by TimW

If folk would only listen, I'm not doubting the virtues of navigational skills on a misty day at Wasdale. Of course they're an advantage! But, and this is my point, the organisers of such races are not deliberately trying to test runners' navigation. They just consider us (as responsible mountain people) big enough and ugly enough to be able to find our way round routes without being nursemaided. It saves them flagging the whole route which would be some job at Wasdale! But if you ask a marshal which way you had to go, he'd tell you. Or help you as best he could.

Orienteering (including the nav leg at the FRAs) on the other hand is a totally different kettle of fish; in that even on a clear day the whole point is to test your navigation, and that's the difference between the two disciplines. The marshals wouldn't tell you the way if you asked, for besides, you can't even recce the course!

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Fell running is a whole set of skills, many of which can only really be built up by going out into the hills and doing it. Because of this, it is far more complex than main stream athletics disciplines, and the one other sport which comes close is indeed orienteering. For a large percentage of fell races, you could argue that navigational skills could be dispensed with, but a runner would be a fool to ignore them altogether, and if the FRA Calendar were to lose events like the Kinder Trial, the Lake District Mountain Trial, the New Chew or indeed any of the Mountain Marathons, the whole sport would be the poorer for it. And I believe that the nav leg on the FRA Relay is important too - not exactly orienteering though is it?

Mind you, at next year's Wasdale race I must remember to ask the marshal at Seatallan - "As this isn't a navigational event, can you tell the best way to get from here to Pillar ... exactly?"

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Originally Posted by Rudolph Hooker

Fell running is a whole set of skills, many of which can only really be built up by going out into the hills and doing it. Because of this, it is far more complex than main stream athletics disciplines, and the one other sport which comes close is indeed orienteering. For a large percentage of fell races, you could argue that navigational skills could be dispensed with, but a runner would be a fool to ignore them altogether, and if the FRA Calendar were to lose events like the Kinder Trial, the Lake District Mountain Trial, the New Chew or indeed any of the Mountain Marathons, the whole sport would be the poorer for it. And I believe that the nav leg on the FRA Relay is important too - not exactly orienteering though is it?

Mind you, at next year's Wasdale race I must remember to ask the marshal at Seatallan - "As this isn't a navigational event, can you tell the best way to get from here to Pillar ... exactly?"

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I don't think there's any need to take the piss, I merely meant they'd not be seen to be giving you unfair assistance by giving you rough clue if you were totally lost (which in an orienteering event that wouldn't be the case). Events like the Mountain Trial and the OMM are great events, no question, but how do they make it into our calendar when they're orienteering?

On that basis we should either emalgamate the sports of fell running and orienteering OR include a few XC and trail running events too in our calendar for good measure, just because they're good events.

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Originally Posted by TimW

I don't think there's any need to take the piss, I merely meant they'd not be seen to be giving you unfair assistance by giving you rough clue if you were totally lost (which in an orienteering event that wouldn't be the case). Events like the Mountain Trial and the OMM are great events, no question, but how do they make it into our calendar when they're orienteering?

On that basis we should either emalgamate the sports of fell running and orienteering OR include a few XC and trail running events too in our calendar for good measure, just because they're good events.

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Infact, why do we complicate things? If we're told the route beforehand and can recce it, or at least study a map (irrespective of whether it's flagged or not, misty or clear, obvious or not so obvious) then it's fell running. If we only get told the route on the start line, then it's orienteering. It can't be any more clear cut than that, can it.

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Originally Posted by TimW

Events like the Mountain Trial and the OMM are great events, no question, but how do they make it into our calendar when they're orienteering?

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These events are not orienteering, they're a test of mountain skills, a very different thing, no need to micro navigate to find the controls.

Navigation is a large part of fell running or do people not train on the tops when the visibility is poor :confused: