River crossings

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Originally Posted by ydt

... I've run through rivers even swam once on a Tanky's where if i'd been on a rescue we wouldn't cross at the risk of adding to the casualty count ...
... I suspect it won't be some climbers new rope! ...
... I'm not after a nanny state but ...


Confusing messages, Ian DP! Yiannis

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Hi Yiannis

Not meant to be just being honest and raising the awarenss of water crossings and about being pressured in a race. The last two times Tankys was run there was a water rescue team at the stream crossing.
Re rope: what I was getting at is it's suitability if you did use one.
I don't want lots of rules and regs just some awareness. on a MM or Trial type race where there is no fixed route should there be a compulsary crossing point when rivers are in spate.

I think the question of how well we apply our judgement in river crossings is an interesting one... and obviously potentially a very important one!

Race or no race though, in my eyes it's 100% the responsibility of the individual. In a race in wet and wild conditions there will probably be countless very important decisions taken by every individual... do I stop to put an extra layer on? Do I stop to check my map/compass? Do I chance that slippy scramble or take the longer way round? Race "pressure" comes from within, it's still your call to make.

At the 2011 mountain trial I tried and aborted crossing a very deep and fast-flowing Caldew three times... got about a third of the way across each time and could feel myself being dragged downstream. Whilst pondering on the bank I was joined by another chap with the same problem. A third bloke came along and piled in, had a wobble, carried on and got within a couple of metres of the far bank and started to go... he just about managed to swim and scramble out, but we'd seen enough to head off on the road to a bridge about a mile away. In the OMM the previous year my partner and I crossed a river together that many pairs were turning away from. It's a judgement call, there's no right or wrong answer, each individual makes their own decision.

It's right, essential even, to highlight awareness of the dangers of river crossings. If an RO makes the call to use a compulsory crossing point then that should be respected without question. Beyond that, individual judgement. I reckon if you cross the start-line you implicitly accept responsibility to make those judgements.

Saturday morning whilst supporting a BG, myself and another support runner declined to cross the Caldew, it was in spate and after a couple of aborted attempts i decided it was too dangerous for ME, a non swimmer. Several others crossed ok including the BG attempter.

The ever present time pressures on a BG make it a tough decision but i know my limitations and ultimately my safety is my responsibility.

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Using ropes is a good subject to add to the discussion Ian.

I know of your pedigree WD :) but what of the rope? I suspect it won't be some climbers new rope! or the anchors? was it a static line or dynamic? was it a floating rope? Rope loses alot of the strength when wet. 6 runners hanging on to it one slips and pulls the rope hard, it knocks some one over, is there another rope further down stream if the system fails? would you have entered the water if there wasn't a rope, so does this give you extra confidence to enter a river you probably wouldn't have.
Who's responsible should the rope snap or anchor fail. I'm not after a nanny state but just making people aware.

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In all fairness Ian, it was ME being the nanny state. I take marshalling responsibilities quite seriously. Stood in the middle of the river, it would have been possible to hold outstretched hands with a person on each bank. There was never more than 4 people holding the line at a given moment
As the water was flowing very swiftly and the rope was there, I reckoned that it was worthwhile to take a belt and braces approach, with the approaching field only 20 minutes away.
As for the ( pukka climbers' ) rope, it was in excellent condition, no fading due to UV or abrasions. It was certainly in better condition than the ropes we used to risk our necks on, caving 40 years ago. Having made it off ( bowlines & half-hitches ), I gave each anchor point a good tug with my full 14 stones. On returning the rope to the race HQ, it transpired to be the property of the actual R.O. So I'm confident that its pedigree was up to scratch?

I'm in favour of personal judgement on this, following instructions not to cross a particular beck cost me 15 minutes or so a few years ago in a particular race (and in this particular race on that particular day it made a big difference to me) but on arrival at it the beck actually presented no difficulties as it had obviously gone down quite a bit over the previous three hours or so. If we had been told 'use your discretion' or 'advised not to do it' I would happily have crossed it in those conditions but we were told 'do not'. Lots of people ignored this, I think actually physically crossing it was fine, ignoring the RO wasn't but I'd much rather it had been left to us to make our own judgement.
Some might see this as an example of being tempted in to crossing a beck to gain a result when perhaps it would be ill advised. I'm confident that in these circumstances it wasn't and many others obviously shared that view as they did cross - but we will all have different judgements about what is reasonable and safe.

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

My Question is if you were on your own would you cross a fast flowing thigh deep stream in spate? now answer the same question if you were racing?

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Reward v risk.

Lots of variables but if already wet and the only other option being very long, possibly hazardous detour. Racing or not, it is tempting.

Unfortunately as all adrenalin junkies know. The more times you get away with things, the more complacent you get.

I was particuarly grateful for the rope last Sunday, even as I clung onto it I could feel the current pulling me away from it - thank you

No and no. Unless it was near the end of the race or help, and not too cold.

Knee-deep - yes
or slow flowing - yes (I'd swim)

Generally there's a bit where you can jump from rock to rock, or find a bridge. It's just a question of time.

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Originally Posted by Usually at the back

I was particuarly grateful for the rope last Sunday, even as I clung onto it I could feel the current pulling me away from it - thank you

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And I was hanging on like dear hell as I went across - then someone behind me yanked on the rope and I was in, full immersion therapy!! I ran like the blazes for the next 20 minutes but suffered for it later on!

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Originally Posted by noel

No and no. Unless it was near the end of the race or help, and not too cold.

Knee-deep - yes
or slow flowing - yes (I'd swim)

Generally there's a bit where you can jump from rock to rock, or find a bridge. It's just a question of time.

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The snag with the Roaches race is that the river crossing is twice - once early on when it's a bit invigorating and then on the return when it can drain the energy from you! In a good year the rope's not been needed but then again - I bet this year will be interesting.