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Firstly with my mind, yes it sounds daft but I can lower my heart rate by thinking about it now, It did takes years though..Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
if that doesn't work then the same exercises we talked about earlier. Bareing down, massage carotid etc...
Ian, I can't find your instructions anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
I can do that, if I check my pulse and concentrate I can slow it down (although I don't suffer from tach attacks or anything similar), it's a useful skill because it also teachs you to relax yourself. My wife thought I was a weirdo when I told her I could do thatQuote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Yes, I can slow my pulse down, too. Concentration and steady breathing. Had it down to 34 bpm in my prime, but high 40s is my best these days.
I'll Pm you on Sunday, Got some stuff to do for GnBit and then I have to be up at 6.00am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
oops for got about this, will do it soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Ok just back from the Hospital and apparently i'm going live, well for a more few years anyway:w00t:
basically they have discharged me but I have to go back in 6 months for a health check, in the mean time I have to have a heart scan and see a bioelectrical technician:confused:
They still want to get a closer look at the heart and see where all my electrical wires go, they say they still might have to go in and zap a nerve in the heart but I am a fit(relatively) young (HA!) man (Always);) again.
so as long as my ankles and joints can hold it together I'm free to return to my former glory.....
Congtatulations! Let's hope all members of our elite FRA subset make it to a gloriously fit 100th birthday.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Nice to have costly NHS high tech investigations "just in case, but we think you're fine really", don't you think?
Glad we're all fighting fit - Ian I had my first ablation (Zap) after several cardioversions - 6 month intervals - to restore normal rhythm, the process is much more refined now (3rd) and mostly v successful (I seem to be the odd one out!). During the prcess they can wind your heart up and down to spot the short circuit (s) that allow the AF.
Alexandra the HRM may not pick up the flutter from the lower chambers which could be what you feel - I can also slow the heart down by thinking, except that is when its belting along in AF - in any case its basically dodgy electrics and not mechanical!
thanks all the ticker seemed to be working fine tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris K
Yes Had a long chat with the registrar ? today and he was excellent. he gave me much more info(perhaps I didn't listen too well in bed last time):o
If the extra nerve/pathway is obvious they are going in (gulp) and will zap it, He said I can come in in the morning and be home for tea after surgery on my heart!!!!
Far from my heart being enlarged and thin it is quite muscly(Sorry spelling is bad tonight).
The problem with the extra electrical path way is unlike your normal pathway which has a sort of resister to limit beats per minute this one doesn't, it is possible to raise your HR to 300+:eek: this invariably will make you collapse and is quite serious.
Non of this may be part of the original AF but they don't know for a fact as they don't know what the trigger was and may never know.
Yes the surgery doesn't take long and depending on the theatre you can see your op on a monitor! I'd be surprised if your heart wasn't enlarged - it seems to be a normal thing in endurance athletes - so muscley and enlarged!Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Just been reading the thread and thought I'd share my recent cardio experience...
I have suffered SVT’s pretty much all my adult life. They come on only during hard physical exercise and once they happen I have to stop/slow down to recover as I struggle to breathe properly and my legs turn to lead.
This used to happen in the 80’s when I was a young soldier, but at the time I thought I was just not as fit than normal.
Last year |I was in the running form of my life having trained for the London Marathon, but once I’d completed it, the SVT’s started to happen more regularly and this seriously hampered my ability and my confidence to push myself hard.
Even the tame hills such as those on the Harrock Hill race brought them on.
I captured an episode on the heart monitor on my Garmin, when my heart rate shot to 240bpm during a race and refused to come down until a good while after the finish. I went with the printout of that run to my Doctor who referred me to the Cardio ward at Hope Hospital.
I’ve continued to train and compete regardless, as I was told that it would probably be down to a strand of tissue in my heart causing a short circuit and that the condition was not life threatening.
I was given a small monitor to carry with me that I put in my bumbag during races and eventually on the first hill of the Half Tour this year I got it captured.
Many tests later I was given the option of having a Cardio Catheter Ablation, which is the operation conducted under local anaesthetic were a catheter enters the heart via the femoral artery, and they induce an arrhythmia so that they can find the root of the problem then it can be got rid of using a radio frequency waves.
Meanwhile I continued to train hard and in August managed to successfully complete the Bob Graham, despite having an SVT toward the end of leg 2.
I went for the Catheter Ablation operation at Wythenshawe Hospital in September where they successfully removed the strand that was causing the short circuit.
Recovery is quick from the operation, as I just had to allow the wound to heal in the groin. I was still able to compete in the Rab MM 8 days later without any problems.
Only time will tell if the operation was a complete success or not, but I wish I’d had it done years ago.
I know that not every episode of sudden palputations requires this sort of medical attention, but don't be shy getting it checked out as my experience with the hospital has been very positive.
Good to hear you've got it sorted Gypsysdog, Sounds like you had classic WPW syndrome as described to be, The cure of zapping it was offered to me 15? years ago but was told if it wasn't bothering me live with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsy'sDog
might have to go down that route though now, I'll make the appointment for after Tanky's then I can rest up for a few weeks...
Thanks Ian,
Alot of people said to me 'why don't you just live with it?' but it's always in the back of your mind when the going gets tough.
Good luck with it mate.
Thanks, I found this very interesting and encouraging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsy'sDog
I'll Pm you on Sunday
If not now, when???Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
NOW NOW NOW, I've done it now.:oQuote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
Sorry Alex I've sent you a PM:w00t::D
Thanks v much. I still prefer the tip to take valium, but without much real hope. I'm glad to say I still haven't had the chance to experiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
I get really high heart rate readings, often into the 240s and no they aren't spikes (I've said this phrase a million times now and people always say "But they're spikes" and they aren't)
I put the Garmin HRM on at least 30 minutes before the race with dampening, there is nothing wrong with me, I discuss it every year with the doc (an elite runner himself) who does my Paris marathon medical who says "Given what you do, you'd be dead already if it was a problem for you".
What people forget is that the formulae for calculating max HR are empirical, there is actually no underlying law of nature determining them.
Oh and just to summarise, the readings aren't spikes or interference or instrument error as I'm on my fourth Garmin HRM and I've had the readings with all of them, and with my Polar.
What did the Doc say it was? Mines been measured that high but has never gone that high racing, my Max is 193 (Properly tested)Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Saint
Sound more like a palpatation attack? WPW? If it leaped from say 150 to 240 for 30 seconds(for eg) and then dropped back it doesn't sound excerise related.
I have had odd experiences this year with heart rate monitors. Last year I had several episodes of SVT. I ended up in hospital for a week with the last bout of SVT which needed cardioversion to stop it (it was running at 220- 228 for 6 hours which was not fun!). I had a heart valve replaced early this year (mechanical valve) and when I was well enough I started to do some exercise using my Garmin 305 HR monitor. What I found was that when I started to jog (very slowly) the heart rate would start to ramp up to quite high levels. It did not feel like the heart was beating fast. I tried a polar HR monitor and this gave a totally different result. It seemed to give erratic readings with misbeats and extra beats. Sometimes it would go to the maximum. I knew something was amiss as I can now hear my mechanical valve clearly and this did not coincide with the HR monitor output. As I had just had major surgery on my heart I was not sure if this was some artifact caused by the surgery. I eventually found out what the problem was. It was static from my clothes (Helly Hanson Lifa etc). I noticed that sometimes the misbeats coincided with my foot hitting the ground. Also whilst standing still I could get the HR monitor to go berserk by shaking/rubbing the helly near the chest strap. I tend not to use my HR monitor now and just go off how I feel (well sometimes!).
To me it shows that the algorithms in the heart rate monitors differ. Garmin seem to do an average where as the Polar does average the readings but over a shorter period of time.
Please, what are WPW and SVT (and any other acronyms previously used in this thread?
Hi Alex, After my last poor showing of passing on info I've lept in with both feet and dug deep in to pre history of the ForumQuote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showt...ighlight=heart
http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showt...art%20problems
Are two previous threads on similar topics
Also WPW Wolff-Parkinson-White Syndrome
And I Believe that SVT is Supraventricular Tachycardias
Hope this makes up for last time....:o:D
I'm overwhelmed! My heart is beating even faster with delight!!! Looking forward to exploring these links after my heart-healthy breakfast.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Healthy breakfast? I hope it was porridge! Just going through the process of recovering from man-flu and remembered an earlier post on my resting rate, I knew the cold (damn, thats blown the flu thing) was on its way as my resting pulse had hopped over the 50 mark, so decided not to train, so I realised I do sometimes still train properly. Now trying to find out where my test results have gone as they don't seem to have made it to the consultant.
Think at the next committee meeting I'll have to suggest another catagory in the championships for us 'super (hero) tachycardios' ;)
Of course it was porridge. With nectarines, kiwi, ground pumpkin seeds, ginger and organic fat free yoghurt. I feel sad every time one of you mentions his low RHR. I used to reckon if mine was over 60 I must be ill, but nowadays it's much higher - occasionally dips under 60, but mostly fluctuates around all over the 60s. Woke last night and checked, it was over 70! I feel something is going on, probably connected to my tachycardia events, but there's no point in complaining to my GP of a resting HR in the 60s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris K
A resting heart rate of below 60 is deemed to be bradycardia anyway so you're probably right, the GP would just look at you strangely.
Best advice I ever got was from an indian GP when I went to see him in my teens complaining of losing weight and not being able to eat much (I was 5'10" and under 9 stone at the time). His advice? eat lots more butter. What a dick, turned out much later I had bowel disease.
could I just point out (and apologies if you already know this) that you guys are talking about several different conditions which share some things in common but have different causes, treatments and prognosis. WPW can cause SVT and AF but there are other causes of both SVT and AF - in the case of AF this is a very common condition and WPW is a rare cause of it. Endurance athletics is a not uncommon cause, particularly in older athletes. Most people with paroxysmal AF need very different treatment from those with WPW and the outlook eg chance of cure is also very different and depends on a whole number of variables. Advice about what has worked well for people with WPW or other SVT is unlikely to be helpful to the majority of people with PAF. Hope that helps clarify a couple of things
cheers, P
Looks like things have improved somewhat since I had my EPS (electrophysiological studies - do they still call it that?). SVT may not be life threatening but for me it was a pain in the butt as I had episodes all the time, including in my sleep (according to the good old halter monitor). Horrible feeling when it happens. I had the first surgical attempt at catheterisation about 12 years ago but they screwed up and collapsed my lung so had to abort the op. I let them make a second attempt about a year later but they couldn't make it work then and afterwards I developed a big haematoma when they sat me up - somewhat alarmed the nurses as bleeding out from a major artery isn't a good day. Gave up after that as I figured I was jinxed. So I changed my lifestyle completely instead and here I am today!! Ironically I believe getting fit actually helped ease my condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsy'sDog
Red wine, caffeine, lack of sleep and sleeping on my left had side sometimes can all be a trigger. Sometimes extreme bouts of exercise too. That's why I don't use a heart monitor. Mine has got less and less gradually but sometimes I go through more spells of it. I have a healthy heart so I try not to let it worry me. Still not pleasent though.
Good to know the procedure seems to have improved, as if it ever gets worse again I might consider another attempt at surgery.
What is odd is that my dog also has SVT!!
thats a bit ruff....Quote:
Originally Posted by Flopsy
Sorry just feeling a bit down and trying to cheer myself up. Hope the dogs ok....
No worries. He's fine. The least of his medical problems :rolleyes: Dogs don't know they're ill and just get on with it. It was rather funny seeing him with a halter monitor on for 12 hours (exactly the same as they use on humans). He had to wear a fetching red T-Shirt to stop him nibbling!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Hope you're feeling more cheery today :thumbup:
Thanks for this very useful and interesting post. I hadn't heard endurance exercise cited before as a cause of AF. Could you give a source? Also, could you expand on what you see as the outlook and chances of cure of AF? And, since you seem to know a lot about this, do you distinguish between tachycardia and AF? So far, since it has not been possible to do tests while I am actually having an episode, the consultant seems to be reserving judgment as to whether my "palpitations" do amount to AF.Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo
Good grief, this thread makes me feel better!
I am a relatively fit 43 year old, don't smoke, hardly drink, do a lot of cycling and a bit of running
I had AF in Oct 2009 out of the blue and had a cardioversion within 48 hours which put me back in a normal rhythm.
The following months I was so anxious but I've gradually returned to exercise, it took months to see a specialist who seemed fairly unconcerned, a 24hour trace revealed a few seconds of irregular activity but there is nothing else wrong.
I do think I have now become oversensitive to my pulse, I just can't stop listening to it all the time just in case!
I do catch it hopping and skipping but only for a few seconds at a time, my only fear is these episodes will become longer and more frequent.
In the meantime the specialist told me I can exercise as hard as I like, so I have no excuse.
It feels good to know there are others out there having the same little struggle.
Cheers
Absolutely Julian. I think it is easy to become overly sensitive to your heart rate.
Most people will throw off what are called ectopic heartbeats, which feels like your heart skipping a beat or fluttering, These are entirely normal. However, when you become aware of them it can become self perpetuating as the more you're aware the more you're gonna have them due to becoming more stressed.
Generally I try and ignore what my heart is doing. That only becomes difficult when it is really playing silly buggers and very rarely does it start to alarm me. But that's cause I've had years to get used to it. When I first got ill it terrifed me and so I'd end up getting really panicy and that made me feel even worse. I was permanently taking my pulse and avoided doing loads of stuff in case it triggered an attack. TBH that wasn't helping.
I decided that the heart is a muscle, I know my heart is healthy from all the tests, it just has faulty wiring. I figure the fitter my heart the more it will cope with the episodes of irregularity. Works for me!! :thumbup:
First the awful shocking news, I had a letter last week from the specialist, I am no longer listed as an endurance athlete, I am now a Veteren Athlete!!!!! That as really knocked me....:)
A I mentioned this in an early post, It is common in quite a few endurance sports Paticularly in Xcountry skiing and long distance running, It's also pretty well known in pro cycling, I believe it is caused by the heart becoming more "muscly" due to the extra excerice. Tachycardia is the same as Palpatations, the heart is beating very fast. AF(Afib and Aflut) are more about the heart vibrating so there fore not actually pumping much blood, this can cause blood to stagnate in parts of the body and if not treated can cause the blood to clot therby causing a stroke.!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
As Paulo mention there are Differing causes but I get the impression both from listening to Doctors, researching on the web and talking to others who have the same or similar problems that it can't be totally cured, they can remove the main cause by ablations etc but it is some thing that IS going to happen any way the older we all get. It is something that is expected to happen to 60-70 year old, we're just lucky to get it earlier!
I've always coped and managed my Palpatation but the AF was some thing much worse....
Agreed Flopsy I just get on with it now, I know my heart is strong but with these occ blips. Following my AF I was very nervous but now I train as hard as I did before. Although I've reduced the number of sessions I do train as I'm picking up other injuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flopsy
I Too was aware of my heart hiccuping/skipping etc and have lived with it all my life(although I did fear it would one day come back and bite my ass) so to speak.
To finish where I started though with the letter, I have to under go a procedure called Adenosine ECG which is a chemical stress test on the heart. I've got no date yet but it doesn't sound fun. This is a modern test to confirm WPW, from here they are talking about having an Ablation....... Phew!
[QUOTE=IanDarkpeak;372328
A I mentioned this in an early post, It is common in quite a few endurance sports Paticularly in Xcountry skiing and long distance running, It's also pretty well known in pro cycling, I believe it is caused by the heart becoming more "muscly" due to the extra excerice. Tachycardia is the same as Palpatations, the heart is beating very fast. AF(Afib and Aflut) are more about the heart vibrating so there fore not actually pumping much blood, this can cause blood to stagnate in parts of the body and if not treated can cause the blood to clot therby causing a stroke.!
... it is some thing that IS going to happen any way the older we all get. It is something that is expected to happen to 60-70 year old, we're just lucky to get it earlier!
I've always coped and managed my Palpatation but the AF was some thing much worse....[/QUOTE]
Thanks, Ian, I do remember now, but I have grasped it all much better after your latest explanation. I'm now hoping my tachycardia is only that and not AF, as I really don't feel that bad when it happens. As for age, well at 68 I AM squarely in the 60-70 range so I guess I had it coming! Like the rest of you, I feel that the best way forward is to train my heart as well as possible (though I'm more careful than I used to be about warming up and down). Surely taking one's heartbest as high as possible in a carefully planned and controlled way will make it easier on that same heart if unplanned fast heartbeating occurs? We all seem to have the same reaction from the specialists - no-one seems to have suggested we give up or even moderate our exercise.
There are a couple of minor misconceptions apparent in the thread, hope this is helpful:
tachycardia - this means "a fast heart rate" (more than 100 beats per minute) regardless of cause - so may be present as a normal appropriate response to exercise, anxiety etc or due to a heart rhythm abnormality ("arrhythmia") which causes the heart to go fast inappropriately eg the various conditions already mentioned in this thread SVT, AF, atrial flutter etc
palpitations - this is not a diagnosis or specific condition - it is a symptom (ie something a patient complains of) and means "an undue awareness of the heartbeat." This sensation may be caused by tachycardia, extra heartbeats (ectopics), bradycardia (slow heart), anxiety with normal underlying heart rhythm, etc
Atrial fibrillation, AF - the ventricles, the main pumping chambers of the heart, are beating in a completely irregular disorganised rhythm so the gap between any 2 heart beats is completely unpredictable and the amount of blood sat ready in the ventricle when it beats varies a great deal so the efficiency of the heart as a pump is diminished. When in AF the heart has a tendency to go too fast (tachycardia) even at rest but particularly in response to exercise where the rate can increase very disproportionately to the level of exercise often leading to a feeling of palpitations and breathlessness. Some people are stuck in AF all the time and they are given drugs to slow the heart down and hopefully prevent or greatly diminish the symptoms. This is very common in the elderly - more than 10% of 80 year olds. Other people (as described in this thread) go in and out of AF (paroxysmal AF, PAF) and their treatment revolves around trying to maintain normal rhythm - this is done with drugs and sometimes ablation procedures.
People with PAF tend to have some degree of physical abnormality (from minor eg the stiff heart muscle seen in old age and athletes to major eg heart valve disease) in the heart itself - this is known in electrophysiology as the "substrate" which predisposes to the AF. There are then certain "triggers" that lead to the episodes of AF in people in who the necessary substrate is present. These triggers can be all sorts of things from exercise to alcohol to a cold/flu and vary from person to person. The relative imortance of substrate vs trigger varies hugely between people eg some people with normal hearts can get AF if they drink ten pints of Old Peculiar, others with more substrate get it from slight exercise or entirely out of the blue. Relaxation can be a trigger in that the natural slowing of the heart that occurs eg in bed can allow "room" for the AF to kick in. Sometimes when people go in to PAF it goes away again by itself and others it persists and can only be got rid off with intravenous drugs or a cardioversion (electric shock delivered under anaesthesia)
Sorry for the complexity - the important point is that every individual with PAF will need assessing for what their substrate and trigger factors are and their treatment and its chances of success are dependent on these - varying from not drinking ten pints of Old Peculiar to all sorts of strong drugs, ablation procedures, pacemakers and sometimes surgery. Generally older people with more indentifiable structural abnormalities in the heart will have a poorer chance of maintaining normal rhythm. People with exercise induced PAF including athletes often respond to beta blocker drugs and may be good candidates for potentially curative ablation procedures so my top tip would be make sure you get referred to a cardiologist with a interest in heart rhythm management if you have this
the Arrhythmia Alliance site is a good resource for patients www.heartrhythmcharity.org.uk/
hope that helps answer your questions Alexandra, and also hope I haven't just muddied the waters :-0
cheers, Paulo
Thanks very much indeed Paulo for taking so much time and trouble to write the above (I'll refrain from quoting it, I don't want to crash the site!) It's most helpful and I shall save it elsewhere as well as having already bookmarked the AA site you mention.
On my way to the cardiac dept this PM for another ECG. In the new year I'll have to go back for an Adenosine ECG. :eek:
Hope it went well Ian, had my ECG and other tests done back in September - no idea where the results went - and I don't get to see my consultant until February (NHS sent a letter cancelling my October appointment that I haven't had yet)! Hey ho, still live and kicking so musn't grumble.......grrrr!
Yes it did, well I think it did, all the results are to be sent on to the Chief resident!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris K
But it wasn't an ECG like i remember it, they did a 3D scan of the heart, a Dobbler scan! (measures bloodflow/qauntity/speed/volume) took lots of readings. Interesting watching my heart beat on a screen and watching the valves opening and closing and the blood rushing through. Heart rate during the scan was 50 which was abit of a problem as he recorded a screen shot of my beat(like an old ECG) but was only gettin 3 beats on the page and he needed at least 5!
Not got the date yet for the nasty test, new year I suspect. if they have to go in a cut something some time around the end of March would be perfect timing...:)