The FRA and the Media

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Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry

Iain, Is it just a case of the small population. In Ireland (with a bigger population than wales) outside of the summer Leinster League that gets 150 odd per race - 40 runners would be a pretty typical turnout. It is the norm over there and they just accept it.

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I don't think so, we have millions, literally, within a few hours, sheffield runners regularly race in the lakes, less often in Snowdonia..

Irelands much more geographically isolated. A few races, e.g. Cader and Wyddfa are rightfully classics, then we have the strangely popular Pen Race, but then our other classics, which should stand up there with the best lakes races just don't get the numbers.

I think thats partly due to fixture clashes, changing race dates, changing routes and shortening routes. The races which are always the same weekend of the same month, the same route, rarely shortened seem to get decent numbers.. e.g. Cader, Moel Eilio, Moelwyns..

The Peris date jumps around each year, a fair few in the field were unhappy this last year, people did travel for it, so I think that affects its popularity. the guy who came 3rd, came down from Northumberland, and he was also unhappy. In fact I only knew one of the top 3, some road runner.. who agreed with it being shortened..

The GB approach is fine in my opinion, at FMR anyway. We seem to be taking good squads and my perception of the comms, back up, team management is that it works. We also have depth of talent and if overall we are down in a particular category one year we seem to have strength in another.

For the Home Nations, we should pick full teams in my opinion when the events are based in the British Isles. I can understand a reluctance when overseas trips are required.

Anyway, we are in danger of hijacking this thread, so I'd best leave it with this :)

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Originally Posted by IainR

I don't think so, we have millions, literally, within a few hours, sheffield runners regularly race in the lakes, less often in Snowdonia..

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That is very true, I don't know why but people have a "thing" about the lakes. The lakes would get a lot more walkers than Snowdonia. I always preferred Snowdonia, I think it has much more dramatic mountains.

As a newbie ish to fell running I should be the sort of person that looks to get across to Wales to try a race. Why don't I? I'm not sure really. My only venture over there was for the Relays in the Clwydians a few years ago for the event itself and a couple of recces, as well as a few trips to Snowdon to attend international trials or races with WPette.

The Lakes is certainly more accessible. From Blackburn I'm in Keswick in about the same time as it takes me to get to the Clywdians and that's at the top from where I am. I came back from Llanberis last year and it was 2 hour 15 - if I take the more pleasurable cross country route it's nearer 3 hours.
I can be in the Pentland Hills in that time from here in Lancashire.

So I can have a half day in the Three Peaks area, Sedbergh, Kentmere or Skiddaw with 2 - 3 hours out on the fell and be back and have the afternoon free. It's convenient.

The fell running community in England are mainly based around Lakeland, Lancs and Yorks Pennines down to the Peak district at the southern end and I would guess that approaching 75% of those are in the central pennine area from Helm Hill and Wharfedale down to CLEM, Horwich, Rossendale and CVFR.
So for them it's their home patch, or it tends to be the lakes.

We have many popular races here both short and long. Look at any of the Woodheads, PPP, Anniversary Waltz, Sedbergh Hills, Rivington. Long & Short, races that regularly get 200 - 300.
But we also have those that are just what they are, a great little local race whether in the Lakes or on Darwen Tower where 50 runners is quite OK.

As someone relatively new to fell running - 4 - 5 years in reality, I also get a sense that there is more information out there on the English options and the races have a more open, inviting feel to them.
I've never done Wasdale, Borrowdale, Edale but I already have a feel, an empathy for the races because they are talked about and written about so much.

I haven't got any feeling for the Peris Horseshoe - I don't know where it goes, or how long it is. I just know it's a tough Welsh race in the Snowdonia area.

That may be that we are on the FRA Forum and I get an FRA calendar and Fellrunner magazine ie with an English focus and I am in England after all.

I don't know why the lakes is more popular, it is easier to get to for more people, but that still doesn't explain the discrepency.

The lakes certainly has more history. the guides races, the classic horseshoes, but I must say I think generally Lakeland longs are better than the snowdonia longs. More route choice, less prescripted. Look at the 1000m peaks.. the routes you take are very set, lots of additional checkpoint not just the odd summit. There's a great leg in the Lakes run between scafell and pike o blisco is it? a long remote leg.. real pure fell running.

I also think the lakes races are generally bigger events, maybe that's a bit of a chicken and the egg, but things like the Borrowdale night afterwards.. we have a few big races but haven't provided enough outside of the running yet. North Wales is trying to push itself as an adventure capital, it now has great events, but it needs to sort out trouble and put on runner friendly socials around the races.. not just head to a sticky floored pub, being knocked into by guys hammered, or unable to go out on the street as thugs are punching it out.. then maybe people would be more willing to make weekends of it.. like the Ireland British Champs trip.

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Originally Posted by IainR

I don't know why the lakes is more popular, it is easier to get to for more people, but that still doesn't explain the discrepency.



I also think the lakes races are generally bigger events, maybe that's a bit of a chicken and the egg, but things like the Borrowdale night afterwards.. we have a few big races but haven't provided enough outside of the running yet. North Wales is trying to push itself as an adventure capital, it now has great events, but it needs to sort out trouble and put on runner friendly socials around the races.. not just head to a sticky floored pub, being knocked into by guys hammered, or unable to go out on the street as thugs are punching it out.. then maybe people would be more willing to make weekends of it.. like the Ireland British Champs trip.

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There lies the rub certainly in my case

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Originally Posted by IainR

Does it grow in Wales? Fell running in Wales, outside of the short races, doesn't seem to be overly healthy, barely sustainable seems more accurate..
I don't think its the odd race, its the inverse the odd race does OK (short evening races seem to be as popular as any), but the longs and many should be (Foel Fras, Hebog, Carneddau, Garn, Peris etc) classics struggle for numbers and quality..

This year their struggling to field a welsh female team by all accounts...

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Outside of fell running there is this thing of some of the Welsh disliking the English. I've raced in Wales twice, and twice got breakfast in cafes in Bala, the most recent trip saw me get a very cold reaction from the cafe manager when i thanked him for my scran; this is a 50% hit rate! It's disappointing because Fleeter has urged me to do Moel Hebog one day, and i'm not sure if i'd dare go into another cafe for breakfast in case it's another redneck.

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

Outside of fell running there is this thing of some of the Welsh disliking the English. I've raced in Wales twice, and twice got breakfast in cafes in Bala, the most recent trip saw me get a very cold reaction from the cafe manager when i thanked him for my scran; this is a 50% hit rate! It's disappointing because Fleeter has urged me to do Moel Hebog one day, and i'm not sure if i'd dare go into another cafe for breakfast in case it's another redneck.

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I don't think its anti-english.. you get very small pockets but very much the minority and tbh its more of a generic anti outsider when it is there... but the snowdon race trouble is between locals.. each village seems to blame some other village with deiniolen normally getting fingered as the trouble causers... they had a large police presence a few years ago but the trouble was back last year..

I went to meet my parents for their 35th wedding anniversary that night in the village and had to dodge past police and thugs getting stuck into each other on the vic lawn, this was 7:30 or so... it must really affect the international appeal of the race. It really does put a damper on the day which should show case north wales. Plenty of locals fully support the race, its a massive day out for most of the area, that means much drinking which in north wales especially means fighting..

Generally though, around llanberis you get very little anti-englishness..

Hey, brightside that's all part of the charm!

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Originally Posted by IainR

I don't think its anti-english.. you get very small pockets but very much the minority and tbh its more of a generic anti outsider when it is there... but the snowdon race trouble is between locals.. each village seems to blame some other village with deiniolen normally getting fingered as the trouble causers... they had a large police presence a few years ago but the trouble was back last year..

I went to meet my parents for their 35th wedding anniversary that night in the village and had to dodge past police and thugs getting stuck into each other on the vic lawn, this was 7:30 or so... it must really affect the international appeal of the race. It really does put a damper on the day which should show case north wales. Plenty of locals fully support the race, its a massive day out for most of the area, that means much drinking which in north wales especially means fighting..

Generally though, around llanberis you get very little anti-englishness..

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never had any trouble in llanberis/nantperis. Bala is a different matter

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

never had any trouble in llanberis/nantperis. Bala is a different matter

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Its only the night of wyddfa in llanberis, as that's a massive beer session, but I think that affects peoples decisions on whether to stage bigger socials around the bigger races..

On a friday night there's a bit of a dangerous walk between the pad and the dolbadarn which can be fun.. but normally its fairly trouble free.. I've never really had trouble or seen trouble in north wales outside of the main festivals, snowdon race, faenol festival etc...

I can't say that Wales is being sold to me :)

Maybe we should start a seperate thread - Great things about Wales?

Here you go :p

http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showt...gs-about-Wales

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I can't say that Wales is being sold to me :)

Maybe we should start a seperate thread - Great things about Wales?

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Aye, but I think highlighting the issue may force more of a proactive response.. more policing.. warnings etc..

We could ignore it, not talk about it, but year on year there is fighting and that's why I'm sure many leave the day of the race and those that stay often just stay in the vic. I won't invite mates up, who'd love it, the only time I did they were stuck the other side of the village while the police cordoned off an area due to some knifing or glassing of some sort...

It undoubtably costs the area £1000's in lost revenue that night alone, never mind hardly show casing the area.

I also think its a factor in the internationals no longer turning up, well not the true elite anyway.. the italians aren't exactly huge fans of bar room brawling..

Blimey.. and I have more Welsh racing pencilled in for this Summer... gulp. :o

Most Snowdonian towns being simply hideous doesn't help at all.
In fact, as I sit here, I can't think of a nice one...

Off Topic.

This reminds of when I lived in the area. It was the 1997 General Election and a friend was standing as Labour candidate against the incumbent MP, one Dafydd Wigley of Plaid Cymru. In a scene reminiscent of the film No Surrender http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089697/ the post election parties were both booked in to the same hotel in Caernarfon on the same night! Let's just say it was an interesting night:eek:

In general, the only trouble I saw was fairly limited in extent. Things could have worsened in the intervening years though. A pity as the vast majority of the locals are fine, just a small minority spoiling things for everyone.

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Originally Posted by MarkL

Most Snowdonian towns being simply hideous doesn't help at all.
In fact, as I sit here, I can't think of a nice one...

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Beddgelert and Betws Y Coed have their own charm. And there is nothing offensive about Llanberis.
Tremadog is lovely.
As for Deiniolen or BF....well, there you may have a point.

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Beddgelert and Betws Y Coed have their own charm.

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Beddgelert is OK, had a lovely little meal in a small tea shop there after coming off the Nantlle Ridge.
Had a puncture on the car when I came out and a couple of people asked if I needed help

Betws Y Coed is great if you are into viewing scallies on the green

heard that Dolgellau is OK, no?

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Beddgelert and Betws Y Coed have their own charm. And there is nothing offensive about Llanberis.
Tremadog is lovely.
As for Deiniolen or BF....well, there you may have a point.

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Deiniolen=Grim, stayed at a mountaineering hut there one weekend, I was glad to be leaving after running the gauntlet in the local pub.
Llanberis, one of mates nearly got his head kicked in for nudging somebody and spilling a small amount of the guy's pint. The bloke he nudged was fine about it, it was his pal that had an issue. Other minor issues have happened on other visits to 'beris, insults, rubbish service and I've heard a lot of other similar stories from other climbers who have experienced the warmth of a Welsh welcome.

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

As for Deiniolen or BF....well, there you may have a point.

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When I was a student, our university climbing club owned a hut in Deiniolen. One night, before I joined the club, they were drinking in the local pub and the locals lined up in front of the door and sang the Welsh national anthem at them in an intimidating way. :)

It's sad to say, but if you want great after-race beers and atmosphere, North Wales is probably not the place for you. Having said that, I've been very impressed by the quality of the actual races from the few that I have done.

Jesus, I must say I'm surprised at all this having just had a brilliant two weeks in south, west and mid-Wales (we got as far north as Cadair Idris).
Is it to do with north-west Wales being traditionally the 'most Welsh' bit - i.e., most Welsh speaking, last stronghold that held out against the English, hotbed of Welsh nationalism, etc etc?

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Originally Posted by MarkL

Most Snowdonian towns being simply hideous doesn't help at all.
In fact, as I sit here, I can't think of a nice one...

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I don't think that's too true..

But I'd argue against Tremadog being that great... 2 murders in recent years..

And it is a minority, I just think it has a wide impact on events in the area. Runners aren't in threat, I doubt any have ever been personally threatened but its not nice sharing the road with riot police so few do stay around.

Llanberis is generally great, Beddgel is now a tourist village really, not sure how much of a local scene Betws has.. but if you don't like Snowdonia head onto anglesey and sample the delights of Brinseincyn, Newborough, Bodedern et al..

But I like llanberis as it has a good mix of the locals and the immigrants, good history, good community etc, but its just that 1 night a year which needs sorting..

I prefer Snowdonia to the Lakes, its quieter, seems to have more of a local community, much more free parking.. but the lakes has better running, more trails, better paths, better access..

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Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo

Jesus, I must say I'm surprised at all this having just had a brilliant two weeks in south, west and mid-Wales (we got as far north as Cadair Idris).
Is it to do with north-west Wales being traditionally the 'most Welsh' bit - i.e., most Welsh speaking, last stronghold that held out against the English, hotbed of Welsh nationalism, etc etc?

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Don't mix up the trouble after Wyddfa as an anti-english thing, its local thugs fighting each other, village rivalries.. most rural places have similar issues though, Hathersage was always pretty rough when we used to head out as teenagers..

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Originally Posted by noel

When I was a student, our university climbing club owned a hut in Deiniolen. One night, before I joined the club, they were drinking in the local pub and the locals lined up in front of the door and sang the Welsh national anthem at them in an intimidating way. :)

It's sad to say, but if you want great after-race beers and atmosphere, North Wales is probably not the place for you. Having said that, I've been very impressed by the quality of the actual races from the few that I have done.

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Used to play football in Deiniolen for the Uni team. Basically we were seen as a team of mainly english students for them to kick the shit out of when hung over on a sunday morning.. always hated the place, the sort of game where the ball should have been left on the touchline.. but now I live near very few of the english who actually live there speak badly of the place. It seems quite a nice place. It had a cage around the pitch the fans used to shake, quite intimidating, always loved playing there for the atmosphere.. just wasn't a great fan of the team..

I've found it a lot of fun racing in Wales this year, there's a small gang of regulars and it's very friendly. No trouble from anyone at the races. I'll miss it while I'm busy this summer; I have Peris pencilled in for September.

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Originally Posted by LissaJous

I have Peris pencilled in for September.

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Me too.

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Originally Posted by IainR

Hathersage was always pretty rough when we used to head out as teenagers..

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I can't imagine Bethesda turning into Hathersage in 20 years' time. Although having said that, I guess Llanberis is on the way.

I know we're straying from the main and important point of this thread but I have to come to the defence of Llanberis. As an incoming Englishman with only a few words of Welsh (to his shame) I have never ever experienced the slightest anti-English sentiment and always had the warmest of welcomes. Snowdon is one of my favourite races, if not my favourite, and that for a whole host of reasons but not least of which is the strong link between the local community and the race which is not matched anywhere else I know. Of course we all know that there can be ugly scenes on the night after the race, but I agree wholeheratedly with Iain when he says these are local on local. This shouldnt put anyone off Llanberis at all. I've seen the Italians loving the karaoke and they're always made very welcome, witness the very strong cultural as well as sporting links between the town and Morbegno.

Too true Malky.
Not witnessed violence meself but won't argue against those that have.
Having said that I well remember the near riot caused by a nefarious north england club when they went on the rampage in a gentle south wales pub after a Brit Champ race a few years back!!

There's too many inane comments on this thread to be able to quote them.

MarkL - you evidently havn't seen the best of Snowdonia, e.g. Rhosgadfan, Nantlle, Dinorwig, Llanfrothen, Maentwrog, Llanffestiniog, Penygroes.....the list goes on.....it'd be interesting to know where your based - somewhere around Batley or Dewsbury perhaps?

It's interesting how the English always bring up this "anti-english" issue, which is clearly a method to hide all your self-confidence issues of being a purely mono-lingual race who find it irksome that the country next door is composed of a race which naturally speaks two tongues. You should have travelled around parts of Bosnia and Serbia in the late 1990's and then go around bleating re: 'anti-englishness'. I think it maybe leftover from your colonialism period, a bit like the French with Jean Bidel Bokassa in the Central African Republic.

Brilliant post by the legend that is 'Malky'.

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Originally Posted by RhosgadMath

There's too many inane comments on this thread to be able to quote them.

MarkL - you evidently havn't seen the best of Snowdonia, e.g. Rhosgadfan, Nantlle, Dinorwig, Llanfrothen, Maentwrog, Llanffestiniog, Penygroes.....the list goes on.....it'd be interesting to know where your based - somewhere around Batley or Dewsbury perhaps?

It's interesting how the English always bring up this "anti-english" issue, which is clearly a method to hide all your self-confidence issues of being a purely mono-lingual race who find it irksome that the country next door is composed of a race which naturally speaks two tongues. You should have travelled around parts of Bosnia and Serbia in the late 1990's and then go around bleating re: 'anti-englishness'. I think it maybe leftover from your colonialism period, a bit like the French with Jean Bidel Bokassa in the Central African Republic.

Brilliant post by the legend that is 'Malky'.

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I don't think anyone is quite intending it to be on the scale of violent racism and ethnic cleansing. Some of the responses are as a result of IainR's pondering about the lower numbers attending races in Wales compared to those in the Lake District on another thread.

I've only raced in Wales once at the Relays and so I can only go off what people say.

It seems clear that one of the issues is that there is a difference between how comfortable people feel in the post race socials that take place.

It also seems clear that some people have detected an element of anti Englishness, rather than just drunkenness.

I think your response tends to underline what they have said. A more balanced response to suggest that if it was the case that they did detect such sentiments, it was most likely an isolated case and that they shouldn't be put off by it as by far the vast majority of Welsh people are like you; happy-go-lucky, chilled individuals who are keen to welcome the English as much as any other visitor, with open arms.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Some of the responses are as a result of IainR's pondering about the lower numbers attending races in Wales compared to those in the Lake District on another thread.

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Aye that's what I was referring to as inane.

Otherwise aye Witton, I agree.

Cracking read at the moment:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012...-bosnia-review

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Originally Posted by RhosgadMath

Aye that's what I was referring to as inane.

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You're just worried if we get more visitors your run of easy race wins will come to an end...

Its interesting that you've never won a race outside of the UK, never mind Europe.. suggests an unease with travelling..

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Too true Malky.
Not witnessed violence meself but won't argue against those that have.
Having said that I well remember the near riot caused by a nefarious north england club when they went on the rampage in a gentle south wales pub after a Brit Champ race a few years back!!

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On a pitch you get anti-englishness.. but you give and get anything which may get a reaction..

The threats to the english, even in places like Bethesda where people always say it happens, I reckon is massively over played.. same as the locals switching language when an english person walks in rubbish.. I can't say I've ever had anti-english comments outside of a pitch in 9 years in Wales, I've had outsider comments, but they've been rare and been from people you'd expect more from, but otherwise I think its a very welcoming area. The only violence or results of violence I've witnessed has been post Wyddfa and post Faenol and its always been local on local. I don't think runners need to feel threatened its just not good having to avoid pubs for fear of trouble. But the Italians don't stick around like they used to, so I think a lot of runners avoid llanberis post wyddfa..

Hopefully after the success of heavy policing in 2010, and the flare up with seemingly less police last year, we'll have a heavy police precence and it'll be a quiet night..

Is it a case of the Lakes are gone so expensive to live in that all the trouble making scallies have been driven away to live in the neighbouring towns? But snowdonia is still affordable

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Originally Posted by IainR

Don't mix up the trouble after Wyddfa as an anti-english thing, its local thugs fighting each other, village rivalries..

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Pretty much my take on it. About 4 years ago, we were down supporting a Bowland lad on a PBR and were staying at a climbing club hut right at the top of Deiniolen. Heading back to the hut to re-stock the van, approaching midnight, we could not get along the main street of Deiniolen for a pitched battle between the regulars of the 2 pubs that were right across the street from one another and it appeared to be inspired / egged-on by some dubious looking women that were screaming encouragement at the protagonists; as time was tight, we ended up swinging down some back alleys to by-pass the hold-up.
Last summer, again on PBR support, we noticed that one of those pubs had been boarded-up.
That's the only actual violence that I've witnessed in many years of heading down to Snowdonia. Aside from that I really rate Croesor and Llanfachreth as my two all-time favourite villages.

Ian.

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Originally Posted by RhosgadMath

It's interesting how the English always bring up this "anti-english" issue, which is clearly a method to hide all your self-confidence issues of being a purely mono-lingual race who find it irksome that the country next door is composed of a race which naturally speaks two tongues. You should have travelled around parts of Bosnia and Serbia in the late 1990's and then go around bleating re: 'anti-englishness'. I think it maybe leftover from your colonialism period, a bit like the French with Jean Bidel Bokassa in the Central African Republic.

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I find it equally interesting how the Welsh cling to this notion that they are somehow repressed by the English, which is clearly untrue, but undoubtedly plays a part forming their identity.

Anyone feeling adventurous could check out Cleator Moor in Cumbria.. I can't promise pitched battles but I have heard (a few years back) that a lot of West Cumbria seems incredibly rough (and very deprived).

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Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry

Is it a case of the Lakes are gone so expensive to live in that all the trouble making scallies have been driven away to live in the neighbouring towns? But snowdonia is still affordable

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I always wondered what's supposed to happen when gentrification reaches everywhere. Where would the troublemakers/homeless/jobless end up, if not Morecambe?