Clubs and Disciplinary Matters

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Originally Posted by wycoller

Grasmere is age on day because that is what they have always done.

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Originally Posted by FRAFixtures

Whatever the groupings, the organiser will not break the Rules as long as the race distances are set such that the youngest runner in any race does not exceed the maximum distance allowed (as defined by the runner's age on Jan. 1st).

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Wycoller is correct to point out that Grasmere, which is an FRA race, states that the junior ages are age on the day of the race. The race organiser always stresses this.

However, the race organiser is not breaking the FRA distance rules because the junior races at Grasmere are so short that the youngest runner in each grouping will not exceed the distance allowed even using age on the day of the race - see my earlier post.

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Originally Posted by Eleanor

Yes you are absolutely right - and it's making a bit of a nightmare out of deciding on events for a Junior Club Championships within our club! If the 'age on day' rule applies and / or age groups are different in some races (u8; u10; u12 vs. U9; U12) then it mucks up scoring points against each other, UNLESS as in many races, they set off all the U12 categories at the same time over the same course. But I don't know all the junior events well enough, to know which do that, and which run different courses. All good fun!

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In 2011 there was a new junior pennine clubs competition in which we took part. That had problems because one of the races had different age groups so had to be discounted after the event and another race added. Personally I wouldn't use times from different races over the same course, kids run against each other, not against the clock.

I'm not aware of many clubs who have a junior champs. The problem being that the kids will already be running in Kendal winter league, BOFRA, FRA champs and their own local races. The first three all require a number of races for the championship so adding additional club champs races may get them running too much. My biggest concern as a coach is if they race twice in one weekend, which can happen

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Originally Posted by wycoller

My biggest concern as a coach is if they race twice in one weekend, which can happen

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That often happens though and just like the issue of race distance, some athletes cope fine with it and others not so. Let's face it, on the track we often have kids running in 3 or perhaps even 4 races at a time.
The typical life of a sprinter is 100, 200 and 4x100 relay + perhaps a LJ in the space of around 4 hours and Lancs T&F Champs will have U13 800m runners racing a heat and a final 2 - 3 hours apart.

I think I'd rather do the PPP :D

By the way that mud was awful yesterday :thunbdown:

Different age groups are treated at KCAC by giving the first person home 10pts. Now KCAC are U9, U12 as in BOFRA age groups, if a person is 8 (as little Biara was in 2011), they may run in the U10s for FRA and U9s for BOFRA. It happened that for some races, 2 people got 10pts for 'winning' the same race. We have 14 races, best 8 count, these spread from Stanbury Splash (Jan) to Curly Wurly Rat runs (in Oct/Nov). It allows lots of people to do races and its only a junior FUN championships, it gets very competitive and yes we do have some good runners.

Another fun thing to do is a mums and dads championships. If your child does the race and you run, first home gets 10, then 9 etc. Just acts as a bit of an incentive for the adults to have a go as well. This has got a couple of the dads back into running and does get quite competitive. Again at the end of year presentation it's another silly prize to give out again getting the parents involved. More details are on the KCAC website. By the way I didnt win it, I just think it is a pretty good idea.

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Originally Posted by biara

Another fun thing to do is a mums and dads championships. If your child does the race and you run, first home gets 10, then 9 etc. Just acts as a bit of an incentive for the adults to have a go as well. This has got a couple of the dads back into running and does get quite competitive. Again at the end of year presentation it's another silly prize to give out again getting the parents involved. More details are on the KCAC website. By the way I didnt win it, I just think it is a pretty good idea.

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Biara, I love that idea, I think I might nick that one for our families. Showing my ignorance, but what club is KCAC?

Your Junior champs sounds very similar to ours - I'm choosing 12 races for this year (with 6 to count). Like you I've gone for U12 and U9 within the club champs. So I'm trying to avoid races where U12; U10 and U8 children run totally different courses as it would then be difficult to award club champs points for our first U12 and U9 runners home. Also this year we have one boy over 12 so have to think about that! I'm travelling away today for work, so missed the Kendal Winter League race (boo!) but I've heard that we might have had a 4th place in the boys U12 race - if true I think I'm even more proud than his mother (well, maybe not exactly, but you know....).

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Originally Posted by Eleanor

Biara, I love that idea, I think I might nick that one for our families. Showing my ignorance, but what club is KCAC?

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Keighley and Craven Athletic Club. Many honourable and distinguished forumites amongst its membership...plus one rather grumpy one :p.

Why, thank you!

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

...plus one rather grumpy one :p.

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Originally Posted by brett

Why, thank you!

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There'll be a few queuing up to accept that accolade I bet :D

What was the restrictions when the greats like Holmsey was a boy ??? or even the likes of the Brownlee brothers ??? Was there even any ????

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Originally Posted by multi coloured

What was the restrictions when the greats like Holmsey was a boy ??? or even the likes of the Brownlee brothers ??? Was there even any ????

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The Brownlees grew up with the current system - they aren't that old you know:p

I do recall running a half marathon in around 1988 organised by Bacup Irish Club and they had age group races then on the main road from Bacup to Haslingden - I think Mark Aspinall, then of Rossy and now of Clayton won it. When you look at ladies races and that the 1500m was first run in the Olympics in 1972 then I would suggest that races tended to be shorter years ago.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

The Brownlees grew up with the current system - they aren't that old you know:p

I do recall running a half marathon in around 1988 organised by Bacup Irish Club and they had age group races then on the main road from Bacup to Haslingden - I think Mark Aspinall, then of Rossy and now of Clayton won it. When you look at ladies races and that the 1500m was first run in the Olympics in 1972 then I would suggest that races tended to be shorter years ago.

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I'm just not sure how good of a thing the restrictions are, i'm all for keeping a race short for age groups, but i also don't see the point of stopping a junior from running a senior race so long as common sense is used, if they are not out running a senior race say around 6 mile long with 700ft they will be out either running with their parents at similar distance and climb or out with thier mates doing things far riskier.

My point with Ian Holmes and the Brownlees (even though corrected on Jonny and Al :o) was that i'm sure (and i do recall reading something on holmesy running Bradford marathon age 16) he wouldn't of been stopped from running senior races as a kid and lets face it, it has done him no harm what so ever.

Before Stagger gets in with his usual eulogy on how great Holmes is, he is a one off and you cant legislate for distancesand age groups and restrictions based around one exceptional athlete. For every on eof his ilk there are literally hundreds who are shredded way befor ethey should be as they have done too much. It can be as much about disinterest as burn out if it all comes too soon. Theres nowt wrong with having to wait for things in life

I named my Profile about Ian "Colossus" but I am OK with "fell running legend".

I choose whom I write Profiles about and my pleasure in writing Profiles is to spend a few hours talking to the best runners in the sport. Angela Mudge is one and Ian is the other. They are gods.

I don't have my notes to hand but Ian's 10K on a "very windy" day might have been the only 10K he has ever done! He said to me "I am sure I could run faster than that!" and in the Profile I added "but he has never bothered to try".

Ian has won Gold Medals with Bingley in Road Relays and XC. He is an outstanding all-round runner, not just a brilliant fell-runner.

Ian's marathon PB is 3.40 which is rubbish: until you know it was the very hilly Bradford marathon, he did it at 16 years in old trainers and ran with a couple of mates and never bothered to do another one.

Context is all.

Last edited by Graham Breeze; 23-02-2008 at 08:08 PM.


Knew i'd seen the post somewhere, The Chairman posted it a couple year back.......

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Originally Posted by Clash City Rocker

Before Stagger gets in with his usual eulogy on how great Holmes is, he is a one off and you cant legislate for distancesand age groups and restrictions based around one exceptional athlete. For every on eof his ilk there are literally hundreds who are shredded way befor ethey should be as they have done too much. It can be as much about disinterest as burn out if it all comes too soon. Theres nowt wrong with having to wait for things in life

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I'm not against the rules CCR i'm just saying maybe relaxing the rules on the odd occasion won't do any harm, i don't mean let 16 year olds do marathons i mean the odd 5 or 6 mile race with not too much climb will do them no harm, it will only keep the interest there and help with the learning of the sport.

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Originally Posted by Clash City Rocker

Before Stagger gets in with his usual eulogy on how great Holmes is, he is a one off and you cant legislate for distancesand age groups and restrictions based around one exceptional athlete. For every on eof his ilk there are literally hundreds who are shredded way befor ethey should be as they have done too much. It can be as much about disinterest as burn out if it all comes too soon. Theres nowt wrong with having to wait for things in life

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I agree. Sometimes....often even...kids actually need protecting from their own parents in this regard.

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Originally Posted by multi coloured

I'm not against the rules CCR i'm just saying maybe relaxing the rules on the odd occasion won't do any harm, i don't mean let 16 year olds do marathons i mean the odd 5 or 6 mile race with not too much climb will do them no harm, it will only keep the interest there and help with the learning of the sport.

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In response to this and your earlier posts I suggest you read this, which shows how and why FRA rules operate within a wider structure.

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Originally Posted by FellJunior

In response to this and your earlier posts I suggest you read this, which shows how and why FRA rules operate within a wider structure.

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That's fine Jim - but take Ian Holmes - described as an exception - the problem with the rules is that they are designed around the typical club runner.

Somewhere along the line we have to give a little leeway to coaches and athletes to make educated decisions about their athletes.

We can proceed along the lines of the jogging boom and churn out lots of bog standard athletes or we can allow those with the drive, physiology and ability to fly.

As a coach I always look to what I believe is the best interests of my athletes and I've never shied away from looking for the occasional "over distance" race for my athletes if I think it's in their best interests.

I used to use the Sue Ryder 5Ks at Cuerden Park Leyland, and I've more recently had juniors run the Andy O'Sullivan races at Whitworth and Multi-Coloured's Turkey Trail.

I only do it with juniors that I know are capable and it's a shame we have to dig out a few "un-permitted" races to do this.

It would be nice if there were a few races in the FRA calendar for example where the rules could be relaxed if a junior had reached a certain level.

Races around her such as Bleasdale Circle, Paddy's Pole, David Staff, would be good races in my books for a good 15 year old to have an outing against the seniors.

Tar and feather me if you want, but that is what I believe.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

That's fine Jim - but take Ian Holmes - described as an exception - the problem with the rules is that they are designed around the typical club runner.

Somewhere along the line we have to give a little leeway to coaches and athletes to make educated decisions about their athletes.

We can proceed along the lines of the jogging boom and churn out lots of bog standard athletes or we can allow those with the drive, physiology and ability to fly.

As a coach I always look to what I believe is the best interests of my athletes and I've never shied away from looking for the occasional "over distance" race for my athletes if I think it's in their best interests.

I used to use the Sue Ryder 5Ks at Cuerden Park Leyland, and I've more recently had juniors run the Andy O'Sullivan races at Whitworth and Multi-Coloured's Turkey Trail.

I only do it with juniors that I know are capable and it's a shame we have to dig out a few "un-permitted" races to do this.

It would be nice if there were a few races in the FRA calendar for example where the rules could be relaxed if a junior had reached a certain level.

Races around her such as Bleasdale Circle, Paddy's Pole, David Staff, would be good races in my books for a good 15 year old to have an outing against the seniors.

Tar and feather me if you want, but that is what I believe.

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I have a big big problem with the odd 15 year olds running in the above races.

It would cost me a place or two :w00t:

I do wonder here WP whether your up against rules thought out for the right reasons or rules set by people who pretend to know, people born at the age of 18+ :angry:

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Originally Posted by multi coloured

I have a big big problem with the odd 15 year olds running in the above races.

It would cost me a place or two :w00t:

I do wonder here WP whether your up against rules thought out for the right reasons or rules set by people who pretend to know, people born at the age of 18+ :angry:

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who sets the rules is a good question. Perhaps the same people that felt that women couldn't run beyond 1500m at the Olympics until 1972 - and look at what Paula has done at the marathon.

We always have to be open to new ideas whilst respecting the past.

WP I cant say that we will ever agree politically but I have long since learned to listen when you speak about athlete development and progression and I agree. There are some juniors who can hold there own in longer races than there age permits. I sit Ok for a caoch to make that decision and not a parent though how do we decide who can cope and who cant? Surely thats why a line is drawn in the sand somewhere. That said I would be the last to want to hold back an athelete from genuine progression. Its a toughie you are right about being open to change whilst being mindful of the fact that the system we have has never to my knowledge stopped the cream getting to the top.

Flexibility is ok until it is seen as an open door for a parent to, independently of or in the face of coach advice, throw their kid in at the deep end in the belief that it will "do 'em good" or simply so that they can say "my young 'un was up with Rob Hope for 4 miles" over a pint. Equivocation may benefit the odd "well developed" young athlete but at the expense of how many? I think the rules are conservative but I do believe that it's out of necessity.

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Originally Posted by Clash City Rocker

whilst being mindful of the fact that the system we have has never to my knowledge stopped the cream getting to the top.

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I would contest that CCR. Our cream is currently settled somewhere in the upper echelons of the bottle but a little way off the top of that international pinta. Perhaps we'd be pushing that foil top from underneath if we had a slightly different approach :D

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Originally Posted by manothemoors

Flexibility is ok until it is seen as an open door for a parent to, independently of or in the face of coach advice, throw their kid in at the deep end in the belief that it will "do 'em good" or simply so that they can say "my young 'un was up with Rob Hope for 4 miles" over a pint. Equivocation may benefit the odd "well developed" young athlete but at the expense of how many? I think the rules are conservative but I do believe that it's out of necessity.

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So in summary, we hold back the few for the benefit, protection and welfare of the many?

I do know where you're coming from as we've all seen the pushy parents, young athletes in an environment where they might not be comfortable and so we have this system in place to restrict that happening in races. But that restricts all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating sending a U14 around Sedbergh Hills. My own daughter is 18 and run for GB and England and asking me when she can do the PPP.
Her time will come, but it's not yet. This year as an 18 year old, she will get some taste of longer, tougher races, but up to AM is what is in my mind and away from the peat bogs of races like Winter Hill.

But how about this.

We have an FRA panel which may have on it the FRA Junior co-ordinator, the FRA coaching co-ordinator, and perhaps a couple of others. They go through the calendar and pick out some races that would be suitable for a "dispensation"?

eg. Fiendsdale, AM, 6.5m/2201ft, ER,LK,NS. Minimum Age 18 (16)

with the bracketed number being the age subject to a level 2 coach or higher signing approval.

"So in summary, we hold back the few for the benefit, protection and welfare of the many?"
Almost, but not quite. Certainly the "benefit and the welfare of the many" is the key. My own view is that limiting race distance according to age does not necessarily mean holding back young athletes. There are ways of progressing development without increasing race distance: improve running technique, running efficiency and, most importantly, speed. It's better that a talented runner smashes course records over her/his allotted distance than simply competes over longer distances with athletes who are, in almost every way, more mature.
That's not to stop them training over further, and with older athletes, if that is what the coach deems appropriate.

The idea of improvement of technique MoM is the very essence of coaching and will not come from racing limited distances although I suspect that you are not saying this I am simply reinforcing for my own benefit. I think the idea that WP suggests is a real way froward to stay within the present system yet begin to pust the boundaries of change. Between us we share a number of athelets who are capable. CVFR have our Midsummer madness series which kicks of with an AS 3m/1000' (or whatever that is in new money) which 14 year olds can do yet finishes with a BS which is 4 miles and I think around 400' which they cant. Madness really as the second race is much easier than the first. I think a series of dispensated races clearly identified in the calender is the start in the right direction. With the rider of only on the say so of the coach. There will be problems for RO on the day of how to deal with junior whose parents insist that their coach has said its alright but they are not insurmountable and shouldnt stand in the way of progress. Weedle out the pushy coaches as well and we're on the way.

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Originally Posted by Clash City Rocker

The idea of improvement of technique MoM is the very essence of coaching and will not come from racing limited distances although I suspect that you are not saying this I am simply reinforcing for my own benefit. I think the idea that WP suggests is a real way froward to stay within the present system yet begin to pust the boundaries of change. Between us we share a number of athelets who are capable. CVFR have our Midsummer madness series which kicks of with an AS 3m/1000' (or whatever that is in new money) which 14 year olds can do yet finishes with a BS which is 4 miles and I think around 400' which they cant. Madness really as the second race is much easier than the first. I think a series of dispensated races clearly identified in the calender is the start in the right direction. With the rider of only on the say so of the coach. There will be problems for RO on the day of how to deal with junior whose parents insist that their coach has said its alright but they are not insurmountable and shouldnt stand in the way of progress. Weedle out the pushy coaches as well and we're on the way.

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I would add the caveat that the athletes we share are, on the whole, at the older end of the "junior" spectrum and less likely, perhaps, to be in over their heads with seniors....and racing further (most seniors would be over their heads with them). Flexibility and dispensation at their age would concern me less than say those in their early teens. I do take your point though.

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Originally Posted by manothemoors

"So in summary, we hold back the few for the benefit, protection and welfare of the many?"
Almost, but not quite. Certainly the "benefit and the welfare of the many" is the key. My own view is that limiting race distance according to age does not necessarily mean holding back young athletes. There are ways of progressing development without increasing race distance: improve running technique, running efficiency and, most importantly, speed. It's better that a talented runner smashes course records over her/his allotted distance than simply competes over longer distances with athletes who are, in almost every way, more mature.
That's not to stop them training over further, and with older athletes, if that is what the coach deems appropriate.

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Agree - but having the option if and when it was felt appropriate would be progress.

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Originally Posted by Clash City Rocker

The idea of improvement of technique MoM is the very essence of coaching and will not come from racing limited distances although I suspect that you are not saying this I am simply reinforcing for my own benefit. I think the idea that WP suggests is a real way froward to stay within the present system yet begin to pust the boundaries of change. Between us we share a number of athelets who are capable. CVFR have our Midsummer madness series which kicks of with an AS 3m/1000' (or whatever that is in new money) which 14 year olds can do yet finishes with a BS which is 4 miles and I think around 400' which they cant. Madness really as the second race is much easier than the first. I think a series of dispensated races clearly identified in the calender is the start in the right direction. With the rider of only on the say so of the coach. There will be problems for RO on the day of how to deal with junior whose parents insist that their coach has said its alright but they are not insurmountable and shouldnt stand in the way of progress. Weedle out the pushy coaches as well and we're on the way.

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Spot on CCR but also a brand new can of worms here which i'm sure the university people setting the rules haven't thought of yet, now i'm sure common sense would stop the junior running MMS race 1 but chuck them into race 2 ????

Now just to go into a different sport here altogether, i'm sure every England football fan in the country is thanking thier lucky strars the FRA rules don't apply to the FA, otherwise we'd all of lost the first few years of Rooney, Owen, Milner ect.

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Originally Posted by wycoller

In 2011 there was a new junior pennine clubs competition in which we took part. That had problems because one of the races had different age groups so had to be discounted after the event and another race added. Personally I wouldn't use times from different races over the same course, kids run against each other, not against the clock.

I'm not aware of many clubs who have a junior champs. The problem being that the kids will already be running in Kendal winter league, BOFRA, FRA champs and their own local races. The first three all require a number of races for the championship so adding additional club champs races may get them running too much. My biggest concern as a coach is if they race twice in one weekend, which can happen

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We ran a junior champs at clayton last year; best four from eight fixtures, prizes for age group best and for simply completing four races. It all went fairly well i think. We had some problems; the different BOFRA age categories, which I'll fix this year by not including a BOFRA race and occasional errors by race officials, putting runners in the wrong race.

We scored them in a similar way to kcac but we gave points according to how many from clayton ran in that age group; if five ran then the first clayton got five points, second got four points etc. That way, being first clayton when no-one else turned up only got you one point! We don't have a big junior section yet but it's growing.

I solve the problem of other championships simply by not pushing kids to enter them. We largely ignored the winter league and the BOFRA, FRA champs races unless they were local. As i said, we're fairly small as yet and i see little point exhorting parents to drive their kids all over the place to races where they will be hopelessly outclassed; where's the fun in that? We do have a couple of stronger contenders, they do travel a bit further and I support them for doing it but in general i think that local races should be supported first (that goes for seniors as well)

As we get bigger, we'll get more competitive and things will change. For now I'm quite happy with our runners just doing the local stuff as and when they feel like it!

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Originally Posted by AndyA

We scored them in a similar way to kcac but we gave points according to how many from clayton ran in that age group; if five ran then the first clayton got five points, second got four points etc. That way, being first clayton when no-one else turned up only got you one point! We don't have a big junior section yet but it's growing.

I solve the problem of other championships simply by not pushing kids to enter them. We largely ignored the winter league and the BOFRA, FRA champs races unless they were local.

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Andy, thanks for posting. Your point scoring idea is really useful. I hadn't thought of that one and I'll have a chat with others at the club about using this.

And yes, I'm the same on ignoring events that aren't local enough. Winter league is good for us, as the races are mostly 30-45 mins away from Ambleside, but BOFRA events generally too far so I'm also selective regarding which events to promote to our parents. After all, it is the parents that do the work of getting kids to events, so I think it matters a lot that they don't feel overloaded or pressured to do too much 'ferrying'. I can imagine that once parents drop out of the system because the weekend travelling all gets too much for them, then the club will suffer dramatically.

As the subject has expanded from an insurance issue to the wider one of what is suitable for young runners to do I am back in. Gebresselasie ran 2.42 for a marathon at age 16 although I suspect this is pretty modest in the context of East African teenage athletes.

Mary Etta Boitano ran a Marathon in the USA in the early nineteen-seventies in three hours and one minute at age ten. Last time I looked her up on Google she was still running and had children who ran.

Without looking it up I suspect I would find that cross channel swimming has frequently been achieved by young boys and girls.

I am interested in the debate about what young athletes could and should not do. I feel it has outgrown the original point of the thread.

I would argue that the people who are distressed in endurance races almost inevitably tend to be senior runners. Some of you - look at yourselves! The person who posted about under fifteen year olds costing him places has it spot on. So does the person who posted about how if there was a policy in football there wouldn't have been a place for Rooney, Owen and Milner.

I hate the macho blood and guts thing that Askwith did for this sport. Some of you revel in it. What we do is we mostly run up hill in low gears so stop fooling yourselves. Young boys and girls run as well as most of us. (Look at the Giant's Tooth Race). I can hardly believe some of the crap on here.

Chris Smale

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Originally Posted by Bo Peep

I am interested in the debate about what young athletes could and should not do. I feel it has outgrown the original point of the thread.

I would argue that the people who are distressed in endurance races almost inevitably tend to be senior runners. Some of you - look at yourselves! The person who posted about under fifteen year olds costing him places has it spot on. So does the person who posted about how if there was a policy in football there wouldn't have been a place for Rooney, Owen and Milner.

I hate the macho blood and guts thing that Askwith did for this sport. Some of you revel in it. What we do is we mostly run up hill in low gears so stop fooling yourselves. Young boys and girls run as well as most of us. (Look at the Giant's Tooth Race). I can hardly believe some of the crap on here.

Chris Smale

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Maybe not as tactful as it could be Bp but spot on, as i said earlier though the big problem is the educated nobody who is setting the rules, i am going in blind here so guessing a touch, but if there was a committee of say holmsey, stewart, and mudge i imagine the rules would be very different where the kids are concerned.

I also on another note wonder how many of the juniors are bored stiff running in their age group week in week out ?????

For the record, I ran a half marathon aged about 14 (it might have been 13), and ran 1:26 - which was my PB for a long time afterwards. It certainly didn't do me any harm. Prior to that race I didn't train further than 10 miles, hence why I did the first 10 miles in just over an hour and then took 26 minutes to do the last 3! When people start talking about long distance stuff it seems to be about continuous and constant long distance stuff. I'm sure it might not be a good thing doing long distance stuff week in, week out at that age, but one-offs where it's appropriate to the athlete and their background really isn't a problem. I ran that race because I wanted to, and my dad who was a pretty decent runner in his day encouraged me and prepared me for it. For a few years after that my attention turned to shorter stuff over track and cross country, but running that race is one of the few races that I can recall in any amount of detail and I don't regret it one bit. WMPT Half Marathon from Billsley Common in Birmingham for anyone that remembers it!

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Originally Posted by multi coloured

Maybe not as tactful as it could be Bp but spot on, as i said earlier though the big problem is the educated nobody who is setting the rules, i am going in blind here so guessing a touch, but if there was a committee of say holmsey, stewart, and mudge i imagine the rules would be very different where the kids are concerned.

I also on another note wonder how many of the juniors are bored stiff running in their age group week in week out ?????

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MC - the bored stiff is down to the skill of the team around the athlete. My lot get T&F both as individual and team, road, XC and fell all from an early age. Mix it up a bit and it keeps them going.

There are certainly junior runners who are able enough and motivated enough to run further than the rules allow (and to thrash most older runners whilst they are at it). That isn't in any doubt at all. As for seniors finishing in a heap, distressed, you definitely make a good point Chris...though, there is unlikely to be anyone "pushing" a senior into doing a race that they don't want to do or are ill equipped for. Seniors can be responsible for their own decisions...juniors, by definition, can't be. The EA rules, whatever we may think of them, exist for their protection....in theory anyway.

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Originally Posted by Eleanor

Andy, thanks for posting. Your point scoring idea is really useful. I hadn't thought of that one and I'll have a chat with others at the club about using this.

And yes, I'm the same on ignoring events that aren't local enough. Winter league is good for us, as the races are mostly 30-45 mins away from Ambleside, but BOFRA events generally too far so I'm also selective regarding which events to promote to our parents. After all, it is the parents that do the work of getting kids to events, so I think it matters a lot that they don't feel overloaded or pressured to do too much 'ferrying'. I can imagine that once parents drop out of the system because the weekend travelling all gets too much for them, then the club will suffer dramatically.

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Eleanor - you've really hit on something here.

I've coached now for 6 years. My main aim has been to get as many of my then U13s and U15s through to the senior ranks. Hopefully helping them enjoy the sport that they keep that desire to stay in it.
I've done that on the basis that of looking after the squad, creating a good environment will allow those with real talent to thrive and progress.

But after the 6 years, I am starting to realise something.

A junior making it through to seniors is reliant on many factors, but the main two that I find are :-

1. The athlete themselves. Do they really have that desire to do it? When they are 10 - 12 they can often get by off one session a week and a bit of racing as they are so active it carries them through. But as they get to 14/15 they have to be training more seriously or they fall behind, lose heart and eventually pack in.

2. The parents. As you hint at, are they prepared to drive their child 90 minutes to a race that the club is going to, or is deemed to be a race they should do, or the athlete themselves has a desire to do that race.

Point 2 is very important. I've quite a few promising kids, who I think would have the will, but parental ability or will to support is lacking and I fear they will not last or ever get to their full potential.
They can't or won't even get them to a cross country race 10 - 20 minutes from home.

Don't be frightened of a few "awaydays". It broadens the athletes experience and will give you some idea of which parents are in it for the long term.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Don't be frightened of a few "awaydays". It broadens the athletes experience and will give you some idea of which parents are in it for the long term.

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Give me chance, only just got started!!!

Seriously though - I decided, if we get parents involved now (driving their kids to Winter League and everyone having a good experience) then the club has a better chance of surviving through this first year (by which time we'll know better what we are doing). Then I can build on extra stuff maybe without parents next year. I had good advice from Ken, one of our seniors, on this. He said NOT to do too much straight away in terms of taking kids in a minibus etc. At first glance it seemed the right thing to do, helping out the parents, but actually it would mean we built our club without that foundation of parental engagement. If they come to events and support their kids, feel the sense of excitement around the team, then they also catch the bug and we are less likely to lose either the Junior OR the parent supporter.

This was specially important as most of our parents are not actually runners themselves. We've had a baby boom the past few years in terms of club seniors dropping their sprogs, so in a few years, assuming these babies become children who want to go running, this should benefit our Juniors. So I take your point, that there's nothing wrong in a few away days but not until we have the basic family support in place. One of my weaknesses is always wanting to do too much too soon, so in this case I've taken the advice. Does that make sense?

WP, EL and the rest of you are all right, points systems, playing child minder for a day or all acting ass the next best coach in fell running. There is no right way to involving the kids and as you can see by this forum no one does it the same as the next fella, what ever the sport where kids are involved in, what ever the country and what ever the level, coaching juniors will always be differnet which is why the rules don't help in ths instance.

Look back in the late 90's the Dutch claimed Ajax way of coaching football was the only way, now look at Ajax, 2010 to date its all Barca, i'm too young to know this for sure but looking at distance running when Cram, Ovette and Coe i imagin the Ebglish way was the only way, yet now there is no other way but to be a Kenyan.

Coaching kids should be a 'Breeze' !!!!

TOO MUCH INTERFERENCE :thunbdown: