I read somewhere that some climbers, at the sharp end of alpinism, use wind-proofs under waterproofs to minimise the condensation. At the trigger I wore my wind-proof smock the whole way round and carried my Atomic just in case.
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I read somewhere that some climbers, at the sharp end of alpinism, use wind-proofs under waterproofs to minimise the condensation. At the trigger I wore my wind-proof smock the whole way round and carried my Atomic just in case.
Not sure how it would reduce condenstation, it might actually hold the moisture as it has more layers to travel through?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan
Trigger, Me too Pertex all the way but carried my Kamilika I have done the HPM with my Pertex and waterproof on.
Dan introduce your self at the Skyline or the HPM, some one will be able to point me out....:rolleyes:
I think there is a risk of regarding either as providing 'safety' when in reality they add a degree of it but neither are a magic solution that will keep you warm dry and alive regardless of what you do or what happens to you. Some are obviously better than others but to a large extent this is probably going to be dependent on a whole range of conditions and which is best will vary accordingly. I wore my kamleika in dry but cold conditions for 3 1/2 hours yesterday and remained fairly comfortable apart from when we dropped out of the wind but if it had been much warmer a pertex would have been better - it would have kept the windchill off but would also have kept me dryer. The obvious solution if you are able to manage it is to have a range of kit to choose from according to the conditions and it doesn't necessarily have to be too expensive. I've a reasonable pertex put away that I bought for £15 and pac a macs (top and now they do bottoms as well) are cheap and effective. Hopefully we can all decide what is appropriate to conditions - my concern on this particular subject has always been the clarity of what is wanted or expected from us by ROs on particular occasions. Take a medium lakes race in settled high summer conditions for example - from some of the previous posts I'm sure a lot of us would probably be happy to take pertex, with or without a hood but if the RO or FRA thinks we should carry something else thats fine, but we need to know when that applies and what that is. Its pedantic posting about it on here I know, but would anybody seriously prefer to discuss it with the busy RO on the start line or at the finish after being disqualified?
Isn't that the principle used by Paramo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan
Lets not start that again, you know fine well its so you've something to protect you from the elements when you are not moving fast ie you are out of the race and trying to get off the fell, what you wear to race in is up to you.Quote:
My "waterproof" top invariably stays in my bum bag just to satisfy often half-baked kit requirements..
Quote:
Windproof is perfectly adequate when moving even in pretty poor conditions (except full winter)
In winter/alps a lot of climbers are NOT wearing waterproofs to reduce overheating/condensation.Quote:
I read somewhere that some climbers, at the sharp end of alpinism, use wind-proofs under waterproofs to minimise the condensation
I don't think I've wore my waterproofs this winter and I've supported BG legs in pretty bad weather, my pertex top is heavier than my Oz though ;)
The colder it gets the less need for waterproofs
. Will do mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
My montane is great but a £160 jacket shouldn't spend most it's life in a bum bag! I think it's probably worth spending more on wind proofs, which you'll run in more and buying cheap mac and packs for the bumbag. My omm sonic smock is so light I'll probably carry as well as my waterproofs for serious summer races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark G
Obviously my Montane is great for big days out in bad weather.
Last year at Buttermere the weather got a bit knarly on Causey Pike, a wind-proof would've been perfect for running in, but you'd want some waterproofs if you stopped...
Quite right. I always spend more on the windproof stuff I wear most of the time. I buy the cheapest waterproofs I can find because they are for emergencies only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan
:confused:so when the sh!t hits the fan and you are really in trouble, alone on the hillside in failing light with the weather closing in you'll feel good knowing you bought the cheapest stuff you could find.....:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellhound
I'm sorry but that logic completely fails me.
Presumably you do posess some good hill kit for long hill day?
I see what you're saying Ian and in winter I always carry my Montane Atomic Stretch, but aside from breathability and comfort is there a massive difference between a top class light waterproof and a cheap Regatta one?Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
They both have taped seams and I presume the cheaper jacket would keep you just as dry as the expensive one.:confused:
The gear I choose carefully is the gear I use all the time. I expect it to keep me adequately warm in all foreseen circumstances. Waterproofness, as I've said earlier, is just not a major consideration, therefore I don't spend much time or money on it. In fact, the only reason I have a waterproof in my bumbag is because some races demand it.
That's the logic.
I've been in this game for almost 30 years now and have been out on the hills in ALL conditions including THE most severe. In all that time, I've very occasionally found my gear inadequate but never have I said to myself "I wish I'd bought a £150 Gore-tex jacket because I'd be SO much drier..."
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=IanDarkpeak;462999]:confused:so when the sh!t hits the fan and you are really in trouble, alone on the hillside in failing light with the weather closing in you'll feel good knowing you bought the cheapest stuff you could find.....:confused:I'm sorry but that logic completely fails me. I am a relative newcomer to fell running, but 20 years of winter climbing and mountaineering has taught me that people waste a lot of money on breathable waterproofs. You pay a real premium for comfort, comfort derived from breathability. It doesn't really work when you are working hard, so best to wear a much more breathable windproof. In both sports you only really need that waterproof as an extra layer of protection, when the sh*t hits the fan and your priority is just getting off the hill safely. I will happily spend big money on kit for either sport, but I have always been happy to save on the waterproof jacket, in fell running you don't even have to consider a hood designed for a helmet, so it is even cheaper. Proofed nylon is just as waterproof as gore-Tex or eVent.
I'm very inclined to agree with Fellhound and NickB above and I think we have to ask what we can reasonably expect from our kit - for a lot of practical purposes while you are moving quckly there is little difference between a pertex and a waterproof in terms of how dry and warm they are going to keep you in the rain. You will sweat up in the waterproof and the pertex will let moisture in, as soon as you slow down or stop you will start to feel cold in either of them. I think the advantage of the pertex is that it and you will dry out more quickly if it fairs up and you will stay drier when its not raining and you wont delay putting it on in a cold wind as you might with a waterproof.
I suggest we sometimes make the mistake of comparing what is good practice and a practical solution for walkers and climbers with out own specific needs - they are less frequently drenched in sweat, running through waist deep bogs or charging across becks regardless and hence tend to stay comparatively dry and warm and if they do start to get cold they can take a nice dry spare insulating layer out of their sack and put it on under their still dry inside waterproof. So it strikes me the best practice would be as Nick suggests above - you run in your pertex and have a waterproof in your bumbag that only comes out to protect you from the elements when you really need it because you are stopped or walking off - and you just really need it to be waterproof.
I'm certainly not argueing the point re running in pertex just the theory that cheap jacket is sufficent when it all goes wrong, may be if you can still walk etc. but cheap jackets have limitations they have to save money some where so smaller head cover, non water proof cheap zips, even moving slowly you still sweat. A £10 waterproof may suffice for a short race but for a lakeland race where navigation is required in bad weather or a big day out in big hills I believe it's dubious at least.
I've been a hillwalker/climber, for 35 years, an Mountain leader for 10 years and in the MR for 5 years, as a ML/MR I regularly have to move much slower than I would do when out by myself. I'm more than glad that I have a decent waterproof/thermals, I have a NF ProGore jacket for Ml work which is not much heavier than a Kamilika, I've used this on BG support in torrential rain and finished 6 hours out relatively dry(not so others who whilst warm as we've been moving wouldn't be if we had to stop or go slow) and a big heavy jacket(not Gore) for MR work. I've also ran numerous Outdoor retailers so I know what sort of Garment is fit for what purpous.
Ask your self why proffesionals who spend all there time out on the hills in all weathers don't wear cheap waterproof?
I'm not questioning your hill craft but saying cheap is sufficient(when all goes wrong) sets a dangerous precedent to perhaps novice hill users.
thats my thoughts any way...:)
" I have a NF ProGore jacket "
Ian I have Googled this jacket and it runs out at £81 ,this is a hell of a good price for a gortex http://www.thenorthfaceclothings.com...een-p-216.html
Are they light enough for general running without boil in a bag performance ?
I would like to read a bit of a review from you if you have the time.
Thanks in advance.
regards
Mark
regards
Sorry Mark it's not the NF Pro Jacket but the NF Summit series in Pro shell goretexQuote:
Originally Posted by A.P.E Knott
some details here http://www.ellis-brigham.com/thenort...h-apparel.htmlQuote:
GORE-TEX® Pro Shell: Engineered to meet the physical demands of outdoor professionals and serious enthusiasts. Ideal for extended and extreme conditions, delivers superior levels of breathability, water repellancy and durability.
For more information please visit www.gore-tex.co.uk
I think my jacket has been superceded by the Enzo but I wouldn't pay that much, mine cost £239 in the sales! but I'm glad I did. love it.
A word of caution on the NF site you posted, I'm pretty sure it's a fake site. NF wouldn't discount their goods to that amount as it devalues their goods and retailers would just stop stocking NF as they couldn't compete. Also look closely at the address "clothings" and at the very bottom it says "powerde by Sale NorthFace"
real site here No discounts on this site
could this be the same company...http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Fake-The-N...00000000941467
But to answer your question...:) It would be too warm to race in but for a steadier BG etc it would be great. If the weather is looking iffy for the HPM I'll probably wear it. hope all that helps.
Many thanks for your reply Ian.
If something looks to good to be true then it probably is !
thanks again
regards
Mark
Read this thread
Steer clear.
When terms like "hillwalker/climber" and "novice hill goer" are used I think we are talking far too generally. As MarkG says, fellrunning is more specialised for a variety of reasons. Most of my outings are relatively short/fast (I use the latter term relatively:o) so I have no need of the bomb-proof gear mountaineers might wear (I should have added that before my 30 years of fellrunning I spent a number of years hillwalking and winter mountaineering in Scotland). On a BG, PBR or some other ultra distance mountain hill-walk you might feel the need for the kind of protection used by other hill walkers or mountaineers but that is not fell-racing and it was fell-racing or fast fellrunning that I was talking about.
Ian - see your point but I still think we are looking at it from differing perspectives. I think in running my expectation is to move quickly in the mountains for however long I plan to be out and a waterproof is then a safety net which I hope not to need but which will do the minimum job required if I do. In other activities such as MR my experience is that we actually expect to be out for long unspecified periods of time in foul conditions and that we might well expect to spend part of that time stationary - dealing with casualties, on belays etc and I think then its worth spending the money on some top quality kit - unless your team is fortunate enough to be able to provide it for you, which most seem to be able to nowadays, in which case they have hopefully done that and you aren't in a team issue pac a mac! I think the same applies to a lot of general mountain activites, especially in the winter - if you know you are going to be moving slowly, dealing with a group, standing on a cold belay or just stopping for lunch (not usually a fell running activity) then I totally agree that warmer and drier kit is well worth having.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
I'm not advocating always just running in pertex regardless, there are times when the only really 'sensible' decision is to stay at home, and then I use a Mountain Hardwear cag thats pretty bombproof but reasonably light and with lots of venting, especially for longer/higher trips out - but I dont think it keeps me any drier than pertex unless I'm standing about or going slowly when a cheaper cag would probably do an adequate job - worn over the pertex in some situations.
I suppose it boils down (for me at least) to reasonably expecting not to be stopped but prepared to accept that the solution I am carrying isn't perfect if I am and accepting that I will be very cold and very uncomfortable but hopefully not to a life threatening extent on the one hand, and on the other knowing and expecting that I'm going to be slow/stopped/having a picnic and wanting to be warm dry and comfortable during a long period on the hill.
Mark