Your idea aswell?Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
What do you call a deer with no eyes?
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Your idea aswell?Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
What do you call a deer with no eyes?
I wouldn't have thought over dressing is a great idea though..Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
I thought Stolly attributed some his issues in the fellsman to over heating, sweating and cooling?
I tend to start quite cold.. but I run hot and will soon be warm. I can't think of many times I've been cold in a race though.
Yep, Goldilocks is the best way, not too hot and not too cold, but just right.
A good thread IMO, it has made me think more carefully what I take with me on the hill.
ATB
Tahr
Then think about this.
there are 2 halves to the equation
body temperature = heat in - heat out
lots of talk about reducing the heat out but not so much about maintaining heat in.
We generate heat by burning calories - so keep them going in.
you'll avoid hypothermia better if you have, and use a plentiful supply of food.
Think of your food in 2 lots - 1 lot to keep you going on that long run or race, one lot in case of emergency to help you stay warm if you have to stop.
Just as important.
A cautionary tale about not having enough layers... ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RtrdqTKBNA
I can attest to be being glad of wearing both a buff and a hood when out on Ilkley Moor a few weeks ago, and consequently I was not eaten by worms :thumbup:
I got a timely reminder in the perils of slowing down at Easter. Set off from Ennerdale thinking I was overdressed (long trousers, long sleeved baselayer, Paramo Velez), given the Met Office were forecasting "light rain". By the time I was up on the Herdus/Great Bourne/Starling Dodd ridge it was quite clear I wasn't, and added a hat. I was happy to be testing new GPS/mapping on phone rather than trying to navigate with map and compass in the wind and cloud. And continuous heavy rain. I think the Met Office were on commission to get more tourists up to the Lakes.
Anyhow, that was all OK whilst trotting along. But coming down Scale Force I ended up slowing to get a couple of walkers who'd also been caught out down to easy ground. That's when I realised I was soaked to the skin, and the uncontrollable shivering set in in the maybe 30 min I was moving slowly. Warmed up again fairly well once moving faster again, and down in valley by then any, but a sharp reminder that I would not want to be sitting about on the fell in running gear. Waterproof legs have been in the sac since then......
Re: Iain's point of dropping off the ridge to get out of wind - agree, but bear in mind that in many places that'll also drop you out of mobile phone reception. Which is fine if you're confident you can get back (and irrelevant if you're not carrying a mobile ;-) ), but worth remembering if you're worried you might need help.
Don't know any details but just seen this on on Grough News. hope he's ok.
http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/201...ed-during-race
Yes, I hope he's OK too. I came across him and an Ambleside runner called Tim who was helping him to put on his overtrousers and together we helped the hypothermic runner to get to the checkpoint on Dow Crag as it was the nearest point we could get help. However, due to the thick clag, the helicopter couldn't get to him so MRT had to go up and carry him down to beneath the cloud from where he was flown to hospital. Don't know any more than that apart from that he was in quite a bad way, stumbling, slurred, at times incoherent speech and loud moans. Poor chap.
It had started off quite warm, but by the time I was ascending Swirl How the rain seemed to get heavier and the wind got up a bit and I started to get quite cold. In fact, before coming across Graham and Tim, I was just thinking to myself that I'd had enough and wanted to get off the hill because I was getting too cold. Fortunately, once we'd left Graham in the marshals' capable hands, Tim and I were able to run again and soon regained some warmth.
Just goes to show though - June and it wasn't even as if the weather was that bad - just being out in it for several hours, using up fuel reserves, getting wet and blown on ... it doesn't take much to start to get into trouble.
wise words leafQuote:
Originally Posted by Leaf
He had the classic symptoms called the "umbles" ; mumbles, grumbles, stumble, fumbles.
My piece on Hypothermia is finished. it will appear soon....
I am borderline hypothermic sat at my desk in jeans, boots, thick socks, a merino baselayer and a merino l/s top :w00t: and it is June! Let alone going out there in rain and wind on an exposed hillside!
This summer has been ridiculously cold so far :( No time to get complacent, thinking it is June I won't need much. ALWAYS carry warm and waterproof kit, you never know when you may need it!
It'd be interesting if you plotted number of hypothermia cases against season.. I reckon it could be more of an issue in the summer, when runners expect warmer conditions and take more risks...Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf
Probably true. I like your logical thinkingQuote:
Originally Posted by IainR
too true IainQuote:
Originally Posted by IainR
I had a big day out in Scotland on Thursday
today i went out and spent the first 90 minutes running in to a strong northerly, it's June FFS, i had 2 thick base layers, a thick fleece, a windproof and a goretex, fleece gloves and windstopper mitts, buff and mountain cap and i was bloody cold so bailed out. tiredness certainly paid it's part. I couldn't afford to get Hypothermic I'd never live it down....:wink:
Brilliant article on this subject in the latest FRA mag I thought. Read it yesterday and put more kit in the bag when I did me long run this morning. I learned a lot and the example of the runner getting hypothermic in the pub, drinking coffee by the fire was enlightening.
Any thoughts?
Glad you liked it, I was putting a smaller version together to put on the forum when I was asked to do one for the mag. It's also on my website for non FRA members who want to read it. Feel free to spread the word as I believe knowledge is king. I know of 2 fell clubs that have put a link to the site already.Quote:
Originally Posted by mudclawed
Ah the author! Yeah I did "like" it but it scared me as well-as well it should. Thanks
Good point I'll add a link to the Eryri site.. think they've not removed my access yet..Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Added.. http://eryriharriers.org.uk/services...r=2&newsid=644
I even bigged you up a bit :-)
Thanks Iain :embarrassed: :)Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
Great to have the article up on your website, Ian - some of the rescue team were enthusiastic about it having read it in the FRA mag, and we were looking at a way to circulate it to everyone. Problem solved!
Only just spotted thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Carolyn
Thanks Carolyn
I guess it's that time of year again. starting to get cold and snowy.
has anyone here suffered the symptoms while cycling?
I do know I'm far more prone to bonking when cold, and am pretty sure I've been on the verge of hypothermia coming down the Tourmalet in some unpleasant conditions.
But I guess because you are generally only at altitude for a short time on a bike it's not as much of an issue.
Unless you live in northern Scotland perhaps.
Just read the article on your website Ian, very interesting. I guess my post race flask will be hot chocolate now rather than the traditional coffee.
Incidentally, I was extremely lucky in the late 80's when on a walking expedition. Although I didn't realise it at the time, I was suffering and when we stopped for the night I was already displaying some of the classic symptoms. Had we not stopped then, I suspect it would not have been long before I was in serious trouble
Funnily enough I was talking to a cyclist the other day who had read the article. He drew many comparisons with fell running and cycling. Light weight kit,Severe wind chill, high activity masking the decline in to Hypothermia.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
IDP, your article may have saved my bacon today, thank you.
I attempted the Fred Whitton ad set off from Coniston at 5:45. At 6 the rain started but it was light and so I thought the wind/shower proof jersey would've sufficient. By the time i got to troutbeck it poured then briefly stopped so I left off the rain coat as I felt good. As I climbed it rained and blew very hard and I descended right into the teeth of it into pattedale. I didn't want to stop on that descent and didn't feel cold. The wind and rain scared me to death on that decent so I stopped and put the coat on and pushed on the Keswick. I stuffed some jelly babies down and a gel and climbed matterdale end feeling ok and pushed on to Keswick where i pulled into a cafe and got a coffee and bacon sarnie. I couldn't face the food so downed the coffee and sat by the heater.
Suddenly I started shivering like mad. I felt pissed off and decided to bin the ride. I had no dry clothes so bought a cheap fleece in the shop next door and put it on and replaced the wet top stuff. The shop assistant asked if I was ok and then it hit me. Wet, cold, coffee, heater, denial and anger. I looked in the mirror and almost passed out. I ate four gels and half a pack of JBs and thought id sorted it.
bike and I got the bus to Ambleside and I started nodding off on the bus. The old dear opposite asked if I was ok and commented that my legs were soaked. I hadn't bought cheap trousers or a towel. I fought to stay awake and sneakily put my feet on the seat and could not stop shivering but I knew i was in trouble.
I had to get another bus to Coniston, a smaller one upon which they won't allow a bike. I went into a solicitors office by the bus station and asked if they could stash my bike until I drove back from Coniston in my waiting car. They asked if I was ok! I ignored them and got the bus and almost passed out. I hung on to Coniston and got into the car. Stripped off, towelled down, heater on but not too hot, more gels and the headache started and the sickness. I was almost sick but fought it off.
I drove to Ambleside, got the bike and drove home tomwrexham with a splitting headache and tiredness. I sipped energy drink all the way and got REALLY angry whenever there was a queue.
Home now and had a doze on the sofa. Drank some diarolyte and ate some chocolate.
In Keswick, in that shop, I remembered the article. Not all of it, but enough. The word I remembered was INSIDIOUS and it was. I thank goodness that I'm fit and able to fight off dozing on that bus...
Most of the deaths in fell races have been as a result of hypothermia ie not injury. The 2014 Calendar/Handbook will have a section on hypothermia written by Ian and Alan Brentnall.
A fine idea.
A point of interest to note, I was working outside in Patterdale yesterday and the ambient temperature was 11.5c, but in the downpour the thermometer dropped to 9.5c, not cold but certainly cool for June. Back in Keswick at 12.30 the air temperature rose 14c with no wind and a light drizzle. This really demonstrates how we can suffer in 'average' conditions. Well done with your survival instinct Mark, I think I passed you on Park Brow as you were climbing and I was driving down?
Attempted to run The Dales Way (in reverse - Bowness to Ilkley) last Saturday & Sunday with a mate. We weren't quite in your state Mark, but we were hanging on by the time we reached The Station Pub at Ribblehead, 45 miles in. We had torrential rain for the last 15 miles. We were both shivering by the time we had our showers. But, we made all the right choices too. We delayed our start to pop in to a walking shop & buy a couple of Merino base layers. We stopped at Dent for a sandwich & a drink instead of pressing on for the last 10 miles. We looked at Sundays forecast (not good) & decided to postpone our 2nd leg for a later date. My philosophy is, I would always rather be too warm than too cold on the fells. And as my mother always says "you can always take a layer off". Every situation is different though & it's so important to stop for a moment, weigh up your options & make the right decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Smith
I think the real problem for me was that the conditions from a fellrunning pov were nothing to write home about do I delayed getting out the cag. But on a bike, your upper body isn't doing much, you're moving faster and everything happens more quickly. I've done some seriously cold stuff as a runner and climber but I'm new to cycling and was caught out yesterday.
Chris, you're right, it was fairly cool but nothing more. I was wearing black and on a black bike. Probably looking hacked off. Glad all panned out ok Jez..
interestingly, I slept for 11 hours last night solid. Wife and two year old up and about and I slept through it. Feel fine today
Yes that winter BG attempt was parky. Glad your o.k. Sleeping That long proves you went through a real ordeal.
My only brush with that was when I ran / walked ( with 2 friends) down Glen Nevis from The top car park, in the rain then ascended Sgurr Elide Mor to do the Mamores back to Glen Nevis top car park. It snowed and was blowing 30 mph on Binnean Beag and Binnean Mor, we had to retreat off down to Mamore lodge and go back via the WHW route. I was shivering whilst running on the WHW track, never felt so cold before or since. We decided to climb the col between Stob ban and the Mullach to get back to the car, and that was like torture. I don't think I was as bad as you, but I was approaching it.
On a snowy winter run my Border Terrier got Hypothermia. We were on top of Gt Whernside and got caught in some wet sleety showers, I had to stop and check my map and in the mean time Jim got wet and cold. I looked round and Jim was was curled up behind a rock shivering and just didn't want to move and wanted to sleep. I picked him up and put him inside my coat and had to carry him for 5 miles back to the car where he was put in the foot well with the car heater blasting on him and a fruit and nut choc bar woofed down. He now has a coat to put on in nasty condtions.
We had a couple of people borderline hypothermic on the Dark Peak BG weekend last weekend too. Midsummer's Day can be just as hazardous as Midwinter's Day if you're not looking out for the signs.
I got very cold and shivery a few weeks ago in Wasdale. We'd jog / walked over from Honister to help with a BG and conditions were good, but I hadn't really got a warm enough layer to put on while we were waiting for the contender. I ended up warming up in a car, with tea and a sleeping bag over my legs. A Primaloft jacket would have been a big help (I was carrying full Gore-tex cover, but there's no real warmth in them)
I think this particularly cool summer may catch a few people out.
Yes for it's weight Primaloft is a very good way to trap heat. Shells don't do that very efficiently, especially after sweating then cooling down due to the cooling effect of sweat. I may in the future try using 2 waterproof layers, 1 layer to start off with, and 1 to put over that for if I slow or the conditions worsen, I think that could provide a, lightish to carry, heat trap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
Good to hear you are ok Mark. If you don't mind i'll copy this across to my Hypothermia page on my website. It shows how it can affect your decision making process and how early recognition makes all the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Smith
Not at all, use whatever you want and thanks again. :)
PS just done the Callow race and it was far too hot. Some people are never happy!
Was going to add this to the main thread but I've been unable to find it????:confused:
Hottest day of the year yesterday?
Edale and Woodhead MRT searched and recovered a missing lady, she was found with severe Hypothermia yesterday evening......
https://www.facebook.com/edalemountainrescue?fref=ts
Thanks Mods...that was quick....;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak