Navigation is much more than map & compass...Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
Printable View
Navigation is much more than map & compass...Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
and if you use an Osprey water bladder that has a magnet to attach the drinking end of the tube to your rucksack don't put yr compass anywhere near the magnet.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
nor should you have a metal maglite torch near a compass.
I speak from experience!
That is a big area to get lost in. I had to do some brute force naviagation many years ago to find our way back to the tent that we had pitched by the lake at the base of that hill. Interesting evening!Quote:
Originally Posted by rachelruns
My next navigation courses will be on 20 & 21st October if you are interested:D You can bring a gps as long as it stays in your rucsac....;)
Not done the BG but from reading forums I gather that most of the good lines have nice elephant tracks on them nowadays! These lines show up beautifully on Google Earth and are very useful for plotting a race route. It's worth picking your favourite race and having a quick look at it on Earth; you'll be surprised how obvious the 'race route' is even if it doesn't follow an official footpath. A gps trace will get you to any summit you want, pretty exactly. I've never had a gps affected by the weather conditions although I accept that it's possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
I'll freely admit to using a gps trace in a race. The first year I did the Wadsworth Trog I got badly lost between High Brown Knoll and Sheepstones; ended up cutting down to the road and abandoning the race. I was furious with myself as I was doing pretty well up to that point. In the second year I used a gps trace I'd plotted off Google Earth as a backup. Visibility was better that year and I didn't really need it but it was very reassuring to have the 'breadcrumb trail' on the watch.
I don't think GPS watches will encourage runners not to bother learning nav skills; most fellrunners don't seem to be able to navigate that well and I suspect they never have been able to, even before GPS came along. It's simply not what they run for; they run the fells because they enjoy the freedom and the space.
It might be different for walkers; gps might encourage them to go further than they really should but again we're just speculating.
No plans to incorporate GPS at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
It's your course Ian and it's up to you what you teach but GPS is here whether we like it or not.
Better that they know how to use it and appreciate its limitations than just pretend it doesn't exist, surely?
As a bit of an aside but interesting nonetheless, the only time I've seen a picture of a race leader with a map in hand was Langdale Horseshoe in 2010....that being Oli Johnson who is first and foremost an international orienteer.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyA
http://team.inov-8.eu/2010/10/langdale-horseshoe.html
Didn't go near a GPS on my Mountain Leader training, and from the way the instructors where talking it's not likely to be featuring much any time soon. Very much a case of "they can be a useful aid, but you'll learn map and compass first and foremost"Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyA
I don't know exactly how accurate gps devices are, or whether some are better than others, but in my first (failed) Bob Graham attempt (going anticlockwise) we were on top of Fairfield for a good 15 minutes trying to find the summit windshelter in an extremely cold full on wind and 10 metre visibilty (for good measure it was midnight, pitch black with thick clag and driving rain :) ). One of our support runners had a gps and confirmed we were at the top but we still couldn't find the flipping summit until we'd all wandered round in a search line for some time. Then soon after that we had exactly the same problem finding the right descent line to the tarn and then again finding the top of Dollywaggon Pike.... and not long after that our attempt was called to a halt, largely because we were fast losing time and were getting increasingly frozen having to keep looking at maps/gps's. Would a better gps have helped? Or could it have been programmed more accurately?
Incidentally I now know that bit of the route really well having been over it a few times and wouldn't envisage having the problem again with or without a gps or a map :)
Not so sure about that. There is a trod the whole way from Skiddaw to Great Calva, I have just had a look for it on Google Earth and no joy. I could see the fence that u need to climb over just after the summit of Skiddaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyA
I'd agree with that. There are so many trods and paths but you need to know where to look and which ones to choose and many of them will be completely invisible to google in any event. The only real 'Elephant Trod' though is the first 5 miles up Skiddaw and of course the last 5 mile run in to Keswick. There are lots of little short cuts and snickets too - the gate on the descent from Great Calva, the best line up Blencathra, the best route off Blencathra? which way to drop off Dollywaggon? Sergeant Man or High Raise first? the preferred line to Rosset Pike? the sneaky hidden path up to Bowfell, the runners trod to Ore Gap, how to flipping find Ill Crag in fog, Fox Tarn, Broadstand or Lords Rake up Scafell? the sneaky runners trod beyond Yewbarrow etc etc. I don't think you could figure out anything like the ideal route from google earth thats for sure, with or without the summits loaded onto GPS :DQuote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
I see them being used all the time, so they must be more useful than you say. You obviously haven't supported as many BGs as I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Entering mountain marathons is a great way to learn navigation skills. The organisers even put orange and white markers out, so that you can tell where you are:wink:
I can see yet another pointless debate developing, the ability to use a map and compass and posses/use a GPS are not mutually exclusive. The ability to put a good route into a GPS needs the skill to identify those routes in the first place. Only an idiot would think they could go in straight lines in mountains and as I said before in a different thread when these people walk off a cliff they will be doing the world's gene pool a favor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Foreigner
The underwired bit is true if you look in the Pocket Mountain Book, good to know not everyone was asleep, and if you want to know more we still have two spots left on this years course.
Hiya Big Compass, I'm seriously considering a second bash at the FRA navigation weekend but am away in Sweden when the next one is on. Maybe I'll be able to do the one in Kettlewell in March?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Compass
Hi Hes
Kettlewell next year will be on 15/16/17th March 2013, hope to see you there
I learnt the skills of navigation in the Scouts and found them invaluable when I used them (and often came unstuck when I did not!!). I've never used a GPS (though I can see the use of it) but it can never beat a map and compass for reliability. I can't belive any 'fellrunner' can call themselves as such and not at least attempt to learn the skills!!...
Also you can't shrink a GPS, whereas you can scan a map, mark your checkpoints on it and then reduce it in size - buying you more space in your bum bags and cutting the weight down. You can even get mini compasses if you feel that's too heavy and bulky to carry!!...
I just think a map and compass is more fun. I've got a 10 year old GPS but never use it (big black rubber job- don't even know if it still works). I see them as a tool for rescue people or the military and such not for me, pottering about in the country for fun.
Not sure if this has been mentioned already (apologies if so) but I've been doing a few events organised by Orienteering clubs over the last year or two. My local one is Manchester District (or MDOC) and they put on a varied calendar and are open to people turning up if you drop the organiser an email. Many are open score type events of between 1hr/90mins and very accessible - you have to get as many controls as poss within a certain time. There is sure to be an orienteering club near you wherever you are within reason. Here's MDOC's events list:
http://www.mdoc.org.uk/mdoc_fixtures.htm
Its certainly not a lost art with these lot - many youngsters doing it with great skill and having a great time too. My 10 yr old boy and I have really enjoyed going along together for some 'cunning running'.
I dont think nav on fell races is generally hard - just that some people can't be bothered to learn very basic stuff. More about habit and patience (i.e not running off into the mist without mentally marking a reference point/glancing at the compass, and not always following whoever is in front without checking for yourself, just hoping they've got it right). Although I've been guilty of all that many times.
I find the best navigational aid for races is a good knowledge of vests. As we know the definition of 'navigational error' in fell running is 'following the wrong person'.
One of our Pennine members got asked during a long welsh race by an Eryri runner which way is it? So I am not so sure your methodology is foolproof :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Porter
During Borrowdale someone said they thought I should know what I was doing because I was wearing a Dark Peak vest. My response was that only holds in the Peak District! (And not always then :o)Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
Well said Will - plus a good plug for MDOC, who do put on some great "O" Events; ideal stuff for learning & honing Nav Skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will
Plus - as Will is doing with his Lad, starting from an early age is definately a big advantage; I can still remember being handed an old copy of the 1" Peak District OS, aged 9'ish and told I could head off with my mates to find Robin Hoods Picking Rods - some 5+ miles away from home, we made it there and back...and learned a lot too. A number of Pals' also organise impromptu' Nav Events for kids, thru's schools and also for kids' parties etc - they are great fun and ofen a first step into truly understanding the meaning of a map and the topography & landscape you are travelling thru.
As you will have gathered it's a subject close to my heart and sort of why the Kinder Trial came about....and of course like others on this thread I can "get lost" a bit too....;)
"....get lost!".
I thought we only ever get mis-placed!!
I am sometimes geographically mislocated, having followed a cartographically misconstrued line.
I think you were actually locationally challengedQuote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
I have enjoyed running in some of the more inaccessible areas of the world (China, India and Africa) where high quality ordinance survey maps do not exist.
This brings a new challenge of route finding while using a compass to pinpoint locations and a rather crude, small-scale map - often little better than a blank piece of paper, to remind me!
The best method I used was to do short runs over the same area of ground very frequently to familiarise myself with the topography and gradually extend the runs into new territory.
ha ha ha...me too!:) My problem is that sometimes I haven't yet arrived at the place where I think I am. This is mainly due to not mentally adjusting to a map with a scale that is different to the ones I'm used to...race maps tend to be the main culprits! I don't like the contours on the Harveys maps either, I prefer OS maps, but I know I just have to suck it up and get on with it if I'm ever going to be any good at navigation.:o
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
My approach too (in such locations). Works most of the time too, though I have sometimes underestimated the "extensions". But I did find it slightly unnerving when I needed to walk to a village 16 miles away without really knowing the way. There was a sand track to follow, but plenty of dead-end off-shoots to confuse the issue. I remember a couple of hours into the walk thinking I'd never go out so unprepared in England and wishing an O/S map or equivalent was available.Quote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
We've got the best in this country, may as well make the most of them.
OS maps though don't show runners trods and the green dotted lines are just the public rights of way so merely by following paths marked on maps you can just end up going the 'boring' way :). And no green dotted lines appear on OS maps of the Scottish Highlands at all do they so, up there, its only by covering the ground that you know what the trails are like or even if they exist (well that or buying a mountain walks guide book :) ). That said I just love exploring - looking at a map before the off, doing my best to remember a few features and then just bash off out (without the map) and see how I get on and what I find out.
I think I've more or less done the whole of the south and south west of the Yorkshire Dales this way, since moving to Settle 5 years ago. Nowadays I like to think that I know the whole shebang, and everything in between, encircled by a line going west from Skipton to Settle and Ingleton, then north via Gragareth and Great Coum to Dent, north east to Great Knoutberry, Dodd Fell, Great Shunner Fell, much of Wendsleydale east of Hawes, the Fleet Moss and Middle Tongue ridgeline above Langstrothdale, Buckden Pike and Great Whernside, Capplestone Gate, the top end of Nidderdale, the Dales way from Kettlewell to Grassington, south west via Appletreewick to Simon's Seat, south west to Beamsley Beacon and back towards to Skipton over Skipton Moor and High Bradley Moor. At a guess that must be 500 square miles and I pretty much know all the paths, trods, waterfalls, trigs, summits, rivers, becks and nooks of crannies of the lot :D
I didn't say I stick to the green dotted lines when I'm using a map, but even when I'm going straight over trackless moorland it's nice to know what features to look out for (presumably the reason you look at the map before the off) to reassure myself I'm not going in completely the wrong direction nor likely to fall off a cliff edge.:w00t:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Sadly not all of us have the time or opportunity to get to know such extensive areas as you have managed, but I agree it's an excellent thing if you can.:D
Please note a Green Dotted Line does not mean that they will be a path on the ground, so be careful and look at all the features.
great wordQuote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Its a risky tactic.. which is always the followers fault should it backfire.. but we've all done it.. I followed Christopher Leigh around Kinder Low on the Trog recently..Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
Especially following Eryri vests.. its a huge area the club cover so most runners won't actually be from central snowdonia and general experience in many runners is pretty low in my experiences..
In general the route knowledge on the peak of DPFR or the Pennine runners who are around me in races is pretty top notch.. even in races like the Tiggor Tor.. pretty simple nav but loads of little trods through tricky ground which can shave off a few minutes..
Anyway can cloud really affect GPS? never heard that.. I thought GPS was a mechanical aid? therefore banned under UKA rules, like sticks? They are also pacing devices so banned under other rules so we often can't wear them at international events like the 100k's...
Iain, being near the front of the pack it is likely the guys around you will know what they are doing, so I suppose it is less of a risk. I will be doing Peris this year and while I have been a keen hill walker in Snowdonia for many years, so have a pretty good idea of the layout of the land, it is quite different to optimal route choice in a race. I will not get a chance to reccie the route so it could be an interesting day out.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
What color is the Eryri top? :)
Can you learn how to take a compass bearing online?
Yes by buying this book at amazon.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverand
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mountain-Nav.../dp/1871890551
You'd have thought so :-)... Jura back in 2009 suggested otherwise.. I think I was leading at one point.. I think Holmsey overtook me on every pap.. and the eventual 'winner' finished with one extra tag and was subsequently disqualified for missing out the final summit..Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
If I'm around give us a shout or message me with any route issues with the paddy.. but most of it is pretty well known now..
No, it is the Peris Horseshoe I am doing not the Paddy Buckley, but having said that I would love to have a got at the Paddy. Speaking to Wardy last Thursday he was saying it is a much better route than the BG.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR