Totally agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
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Totally agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
Yes me too. Long dogs is a broken record!
Agreed too, Longdog while I understand you are passionate about this subject you are letting this cloud your objectivity and in doing so alienating the very people how would support you.
Working ESS have very few health problems, to allude to other wise is alarmist to the new puppies owners. :thunbdown:
Tahr
Longdogs, you have made some really good points and are obviously passionate about this but there will always be a market for puppies and I would like to think that most of the people on this forum would have the sense to do a fair bit of research on the subject before entering in to a 15 year relationship!Quote:
Originally Posted by Murt
As posted by XRunner
"Why not start a tirade against those people who abandon unwanted dogs, rather than a responsible person who buys a dog from a reputable breeder?"
Lyndon
Where in my post does it say i blame anyone? I am just pointing out the consequences of actions, which many people are unaware of, after that you make your own choice. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. I intend on remaining a broken record for as long as i have to see the trauma my friends go through spending their working lives killing healthy dogs, or condemn them to the same myself. If you had to do the same, i think you'd probably not want to give up on trying to improve things either.. I'm not worried about alienating people, i'm not in this to win friends and influence people!
Irrelevant, and sadly, rarely true. I doubt fell runners are substantively different from the rest of the population in this regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndon
There's nothing subjective about the facts- it's a numbers game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
ESS? What have they got to do with this?
Oh, and can someone remind me what a 'reputable' breeder is. A more meaningless phrase i can't think of.. reputatable for what?
We all have our opinions but I decided on a puppy for many reasons which is my choice at the end of the day. Whilst I agree a rescue dog would be a nice effort to please you I decided I didn't want to risk a dog with potential behavioural problems with my children. A puppy will help to teach my kids an important lesson in life with regards to looking after and respecting animals and allow me to train her from day one. One thing for certain she is guaranteed a very good life of exercise and fun which may not be the case if someone else had bought her. I'm not sure your personal attack helps at all in fact completely the opposite. For the record I did a lot of research and spent a lot of time with my local rescue centre which helped me to realise most of the rescue dogs were not compatible with our needs.....if my heart had ruled over my head I would have been just as guilty as the idiots who get a dog and give it up soon after.
Of course you're entitled to make your choice just as anyone is, and i have no reason to think you will not give your dog a good life. I profoundly disagree with your choice, but it isn't personal. I have strong feelings which have fuelled my research but my opinions are evidence-based. Anyone who has evidence that buying a puppy reduces the potential for behaviour problems i would be interested in seeing it, please post it on here. I've studied this extensively as a postgrad by the way.. and welcome sensible discussion (i'll try to keep my bad temper in check :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Markollyh
Also, if anyone has any evidence that pathology of any of the body systems i mentioned is not overrepresented in the cocker spaniel, please post it here.
If anyone has evidence puppy sales are exempt from the law of supply and demand, please post it here.
It's laudable that you have put so much thought into getting a dog, most people don't. I respect you for that, although i profoundly disagree with your decision. Your decision will have cost another dog(s) a life. If anyone can suggest how that is not true, please post it on here. But all decisions have costs and benefits to someone. I see the pain, canine and human, on a daily basis, and despite my 'tirades' (as described by someone), i can understand how it is possible for others to overlook that even while knowing about it (as i do in other areas of life). I didn't fully grasp the situation, and connect the dots until a year after graduation when i was vaccinating puppies in one room during evening surgery, while, unbeknown to me, in the adjacent room, a nurse was killing dogs who had had their 7 days at the pound. I say killing, because this is not euthanasia- an end to suffering. They weren't suffering, they were surplus numbers. A pile of dead dogs is something that most people don't get to see, but it focuses the mind. So it has become rather a soap box for me. I cannot apologise for caring.. the day i stop trying to do something about this is the day i give up bothering to get up in the morning. So sorry for any unpleasantness, but i will never ever shut up about it!
Just as an aside, not everyone who has to give up a dog is an uncaring idiot. Circumstances change, people die, all sorts of things. If there weren't such pressure and a market for new puppies, there'd be a chance of helping their dogs and educating them. But there isn't because everyone is run ragged trying to stem a relentless flow of dogs.
Having only just read this thread I think Longdogs has some good points to make, but they are lost in the venom they are made in. And your guilt trip ridden attack at anyone who buys a dog that doesn't fit in with your beliefs is pretty low and will result in a lack of respect from other forumites in relation to you and your cause. In future you may want to put your brain in gear before the keyboard, that way you'll get your point across and people may well take it on board, rather than regarding you as a "scratched record"
I hope you don't see this as a personal attack. I just know whats it's like when your passion about something can do more harm than good if used incorrectly.
I certainly agree that it's a frequent occurrence on forums to type before thinking. However, i think venom is a little too strong a word!Quote:
Originally Posted by The devil's own
If you read back, you'll see that i first made my point in a distinctly unvenomous way. People had already stated a pre-existing opposition to my beliefs before i started to get a tad grumpy. So they aren't going to 'take on board' my point of view if i'm Ms Nice or Ms Nasty are they? I have had a heap of PMs supporting what i've said over years on here, from people who don't want to get drawn into a public thread, so maybe i am doing some good, despite the more vocal stuff on here. If i've saved only one dog's life through laying out the facts it's worth it (and i know it's more than that because i've met the dogs!). I'd really like to think that people could make their choices based on fact and evidence, not personality of the messenger.. but of course there's plenty of evidence that it doesn't work that way.
Reiteration... concerns about behaviour problems are the most often cited reason for getting a puppy rather than rehoming, by a country mile. Widely believed as was flat earth yadda yadda.. True? No. Logical? No. Do i understand why people think this? Yes. I should do, i've seen and spoken about it daily for 15 years. Happy to expand on it if required, but if people can't see past my (admittedly) abrasive personality to look at what really matters, i won't bother. I've got plenty of other places to direct my energy, such as revising for an exam to help my vocation as animal welfare advocate.. which might be more fruitful than here!
Longdogs gave us one rescue lurcher and we have now got another which Mrs Stagger drove to Wales to pick up from a rescue shelter.
Both are first class dogs in every sense.
LD has a very valid point and people should think long and hard before throwing money at a breeder.
Devil, I like the bit that that mentions personal attack, made me smile.
Are you a dog owner???
Unfortunately a rescue dog perpetuates the problem of unscrupulous breeders and irresponsible owners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
There is no easy solution to the problem of an unwanted pet until the [human] cause of the problem can be eradicated.
Tis true Sir but a breeder is looking for cash and when that drys up so does most of the unscrupulous breeders.Quote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
Chip the dog to a register owner. Like a car. Not 100% fool proof but better than now.
OK. Now let's put our minds to solving the underlying problem. How do we eradicate mankind?Quote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
We have a rescue dog that LD pointed us in the right direction for. Our little Border Collie is a pure delight. When we got her she was a very scared little lass but now she is so confident and loving. I personally would not go to a breeder for a family dog or cat since I looked into the rescue situation. We have done so in the past as we have a 10 year old Chocolate Lab and at the time we didn't think past the fact we wanted a puppy. We used all the reasons that has been said on here - you know what your getting, you can see the temperament of the parents, they are great with kids and on and on. We really didn't know any different, we also didn't know the "rescue problem".
Whenever I hear about a rescue pet I just think that 99% of them were probably once that "must have, much loved, perfect puppy".
I really do wish you every happiness with the new member of your family and that if in the future you decide to add to them you head down to the rescue centre or ask LD as she will move heaven and earth to help you find a dog to suit your wish list xx
Got our 8 week old spaniel on Friday and very happy with her. Housetrained, comes to call, fetch and drops and sits so far. I'm sure the next few months will get harder but so far so good. Thanks for the suggestions on the forum. We are still thinking of getting a rescue dog once our cocker is a bit older and fully trained. This is our 3rd dog and just as easy to train as our labrador and collie cross which is a pleasant surprise.
Blimey, all that at 8 weeks. That's amazing. Pictures please...Quote:
Originally Posted by Markollyh
Probably tried to much too soon but she's doing great in just 2 days with us. She had an accident in the house today but really taken to clicker training. One thing for sure she can look forward to many years of fun and travel with us.
Some kind of super magnet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatcher
Incidentally, very good thread, as currently about to spring(er) for a dog myself soon. Will be a rescue dog, but so far hard to find something other than staffs.....well, there was a border collie, but they are a bit too focused for my circumstances.
http://www.nessr.net
English Springer Spaniel Rescue. This is the northern branch but I think they are countrywide.
Awful story - a rehomed dog apparently.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24839612