Oh crap, I've agreed with CL on a couple of points.
I feel dirty and ashamed.
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Oh crap, I've agreed with CL on a couple of points.
I feel dirty and ashamed.
Tricky business. How much of someone's nature is the product of circumstance driven by the actions of another?Quote:
When trying to ascertain who started something, I look at the nature of the people involved and try to find differences in ideology. From that I get a feeling about a situation before looking at other evidence.
I'm just so pleased this hasn't degenerated into a discussion about FRA safety rules. Yet... :)
....yet....
And how would you apply that to the dead children in Gaza?Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
I agree. Plus the separatist rebels haven't been flying planes. So it's very unlikely to be the Ukrainian military that were responsible since they'd have no reason to be firing anti-aircraft missiles. Putin is a menace but some people are still reluctant to believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
I read this blog entry a week or so ago, and it came accross as much more believable than the same old reheated stuff coming out of the world's media. The key bit is the evidence of Ukranian missile batteries and spy planes active in the area at the time of the incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
If the western powers want to isolate Putin then they'll control the media accordingly, i don't trust either of them personally and you only have to go back as far as Blair and his anti-Saddam campaign to see how it is done. Any organisations not singing from the right songsheet will be kept as quiet as possible.
There's too much at stake to go eroding diplomatic relations with Russia unnecessarily, it could lead to another Cold War. I saw a documentary a while ago on how close the Cold War actually came to being 'hot'; there was a Russian man stood in front of the safe containing the launch codes, all his commanding officer had to do was say "yes" and the codes were out, once the codes come out nothing stops missiles being launched and the target was the UK. They were that paranoid they mistook a drill exercise for the real thing. It wasn't just them either, we had Lightening Jets sat on our runways at full throttle fairly regularly, ready to take off and launch a counter offensive against targets in Russia under the premise their missiles were on the way. I strongly believe it's not a situation worth risking again, and i don't have much time for the finger waggers in the UN.
I think this particular blogger destroys all his credibility when he comes out with this bizarre statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
What the US still refers to as the "illegal annexation of Crimea" was actually the result of a heavy turn-out vote by the Crimean people where 97% of the votes cast were in favor of rejoining Russia.
In fact in a vote at the UN, an overwhelming majority of the world's nations decided it was an illegal annexation and the referendum a complete sham. Here's why:
- Crimea was under an illegal Russian military occupation at the time.
- The question set didn't even allow for the option of retaining the status quo
- The ballot boxes were transparent so that the voting slips were visible through the box walls.
- The referendum was arranged in unseemly haste so there was no chance to consult all parties as to its terms of reference. Contrast that with the Scottish independence referendum.
- The referendum breached the Ukrainian constitution
As a result of this most people opposed to Crimea joining with Russia didn't bother to vote at all. The so called result was at odds with previous opinion polls and indeed the 1991 referendum when a majority of people in Crimea had voted to be part of an independent Ukraine.
Only 11 countries voted against the UN resolution. This included Russia obviously and some satellite states no doubt too worried about the consequences of offending Putin to do otherwise. They also included those well known freedom loving democracies of Syria and Zimbabwe.
None of this is mentioned by your blogger. I wonder why. Nor does he seem interested in the fact that Russia has fomented war in a neighbouring sovereign state.
Until now, I've steered away from this as it's a topic that you gain little from voicing an opinion on.
There are many elements, old issues going back many generations. But ultimately what really stirs this up is people in power who prey on the masses and use these old issues as fuel.
It gets associated with religion as this often manifests itself amongst religious groups, but it is more a result of authoritarianism, and perhaps a degree of insanity.
The Middle East was the birth of civilisation on Earth in many respects and I remember the fascination I had in secondary school learning about it. Now it just seems to be 1000's of square miles of war, murder, savagery with millions of ordinary folk being caught up in this violence merely through an accident of birth.
I think that the arms industry has a huge role to play in world conflicts of the last 20 years. The Americans with help from particularly us in GB and the French supply "defence" all around the world. It brings in huge money, employs vast numbers.
But to keep the factories ticking over, conflicts are needed. Each Tomahawk missile fired is $1,000,000 turnover for Raytheon, so the Gulf War and Afghanistan conflict must have been very lucrative for them.
All these mini-skirmishes around the Islamic World seem a convenient money spinner for the US arms industry in particular.
But it's not just the Americans with Western minor supporters. The Russians and Chinese are also in this game. Then we have North Korea.
The NK Government might be involved in pretty low level stuff, but in the places they sell it a man with a blow-pipe is king, so it has a huge de-stablising impact.
Fahrenheit 911 asks searching questions about the linkage of thee arms companies and major industrials to the Twin Towers attack and it makes compelling viewing.
It makes me wonder whether we are all being had for mugs, with Governments just the puppets of big powerful corporations. Hired puppets with the main purpose of maintaining a degree of conflict around the world and helping them tick over, whilst maintaining the supply of essential energy sources.
I've sat listening to countless politicians from around the world for 30 years advising that we must have peace, the Palestinians and Israelis need to come together.....
It could be done if there was the International will outside of the main protagonists.
The Gaza strip is about 200 square miles and nowhere is more than about 8 miles from the coast.
A small NATO fleet off the coast with air support. An Arab League ground force in Gaza to maintain law and order.
Control of Gaza would give some confidence to Israel and it would guarantee the Safety of the Palestinians.
It might be needed for 20 years or more, but how long did we spend in Afghanistan and Iraq?
20 years would allow a generation to develop who knew life away from armed conflict.
Build infrastructure, schools, hospitals, roads, rail, ports and sanitation systems instead of enforcing perpetual poverty, illness, violence and death.
The French are cashing in on Iraq as I type.Quote:
I think that the arms industry has a huge role to play
Israel may have the Golan heights but it is losing the moral high ground. In the UK it is not just the bleeding hearts who think this offensive is wrong, even some Americans no longer blindly support Israel.
Wars are increasingly fought in the news. It's in Hamas' interests to get Israel to keep bombing hospitals and schools. By doing this, Hamas are causing the deaths of their own civilians. They must be a terribly committed bunch to justify that. I suspect they just blame Israel for all of it.
I don't! That wasn't the context in which I was writing. In my mind I was thinking about laws created by one race of people that discriminated against another race living in the same country. If those laws gave the children, or future generation of one race legal advantages, you can't blame that future generation for decisions based on their behalf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlegs
In war the situation is different and no one as yet has built bombs that discriminate between adults and children. And even if such a weapon existed would it encourage the guilty party to stop their aggression? No, I think it would make them continue because they would never suffer loses that really hurt.
Good point Noel. We see news reports of Men, Women and children - particularly children - being killed in wars. What follows is outrage and hysteria aimed at the side defending itself. But the same people don't condemn Hamas. Just shows that some people will always support the underdog even when he's wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
ISIS must feel very proud of themselves.
Kill 3 jewish teenagers, stand back and watch the dogs of war rip each other to bits....as a perfect distraction for land grab and genocide a few miles to the east
The News, and the online news comments section.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/do...merica#1gqf93n
I have no ability to verify this article. But it seems a plausible tactic even if this article is off the mark in this instance, and I wouldn't restrict the tactic to just the alleged perpetrators in this particular article.
Interesting to re-read the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
Some of our long-standing and lapsed members of the forum as well. I miss CL. Hope he's doing well.
Other than the date, not much has changed.
Plus ca change. So sad. Who will speak for the poor innocents caught up in all this?
Not sure it was a good idea to dig this up, as it contains a very nasty religious slurQuote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
Maybe he would say similar about other states where a faith plays a greater role than might be deemed healthy.
I didn't read as much in to it as you are Marco.
It's a very nasty, and ignorant, comment. At the very best it's religious bigotry, and many people would call it something far worse.
I agree with WP on that, I actually read the comment 3 times to see what you were getting at. If it was written as a nasty bigoted comment it wasn’t a very good one.
Or perhaps I’m just slow on the uptake.
Marco, I think you joined the Forum after CL had stopped posting, so you may not be aware that nasty slurs were a specialty of his; although he always managed to phrase them quite elegantly, without the sort of bluster that has got certain people banned from the Forum in recent years. I remember one occasion when I was fairly new to the Forum, when I assumed that one of CL's posts was a parody of extreme right-wing views, and was then corrected by another forumite who told me that what he had written was actually what he believed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I met CL and I'd be happy to bump into him again.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
Some people just like to provoke a response and I think CL was one of them.
From what I recall, CL was not right wing. He was an anarchist. So his views were extreme, but that is only because were are conditioned to accept what we have and not veer to far out of the mainstream for fear of being labelled extreme.
To give you an example, we have a system that can run up debt in to the Trillions in our name with apparently no limit - we've blown Corbyn's magic money tree out of the park.
It can extract money under threat of prosecution directly from our pay packets/income supposedly to provide services for us, but has no minimum legal standard and can say "no", "not yet" or "never" when attempting to access those services or make some type of choice around them.
I believe he wanted to break that up - I have sympathy for his position.
He did try and advocate using leg machines in the gym though.
Absolutely unforgiveable!
Might be the latter, I'm afraid, with no disrespect intended. If I shorten it, and use some highlighting, you will hopefully see it for the deliberate religious slur it isQuote:
Originally Posted by molehill
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
Too true. And Mike T recently referred to some research paper were they were effectively described as borderline Satanic. I'v crossed myself after writing Satanic and referring to those machines in the same sentence. Damn it! I've now got to cross again... ARrrghQuote:
Originally Posted by Travs
I got it, but only after looking for it as I didn't read it as a deliberate religous slur. I am probably thicker skinned than some and interpreted it more as a religous comment as opposed to a slur.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
But just me being old, grumpy and not very woke.
It was a religious slur, and straight out of The Bigot's Handbook.Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
Just change Israel to Britain, and you can slur a different religion. Now try it with India or Pakistan; pick which religion you want to slur and select the appropriate country.
I find all religions a bit strange, so you could insert whatever religion or country you like in there and it wouldn't worry me.
I am very fair and even handed in my bigotism.
I read it as a deliberate religion slur.Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
He might have said the same about Saudi.
They also believe in chicks with dicks, free fentanyl for all, and limitless immigration in California.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Same as the UK then, apart from the fentanylQuote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
That's progress MarcoQuote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Please don't make light of the suffering of the Arab people and their years of oppression by the dominant Israelis and their western supporters. They are not perfect, but.....
Seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPo
I'll freely admit there are issues on both sides, but 5 times there's been a peace deal on the table and 5 times the Isrealis have been accepting and each time the Palestinians have walked away.
Arafat refused the Oslo agreement because he'd have been murdered.
IN 2008 Olmert had a deal agreed with Abbas and even offered to give up control of the old city of Jerusalem. Abbas went away and never returned.
Where are we now.
Idiots on the street asking for a cease fire after 1200 killed and hundreds taken hostage.
Call for the hostages to be released - it's 4 months this week. You might just get the crease fire then.
There is one side with elements calling for the annihilation of the other. One side only. And they have backed it up with deeds.