Yes, friends are emigrating. Scientists funded by the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
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Yes, friends are emigrating. Scientists funded by the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
You did see that, but there's talk that the senior (German) part of the deal may wish to force the headquarters to be in the EU after originally planning for it to be in LondonQuote:
Originally Posted by Travs
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07..._after_brexit/
so i,m alright **** the rest
Would they have done this anyway for a brighter future?Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
Idiots. Agreements will.not be deconstructed retrospectively.
I agree with Alan Lucker, we should all take a trip to the seaside and forget about it.
I fear the wrong Tory front bench taking over the job will put us back too close to where we began. There's a risk they'll bottle it and accept free movement in return for a sweet trade deal, leaving the UK with a net migration rate that is still outstripping the infrastructure and resources. Hopefully the situation that is leaving farmers dependent of subsidies, and fishermen wanging dead fish back into the sea can be addressed.
I wish people would stop flapping and be brave too. Some remainers seem to have banded together and set out on a righteous campaign to overturn a democratic process. All they will achieve is to destabilise the whole changover process and the markets aswell. We could really do with acceptance and stability, the more the remainers rock the boat the bigger the danger the country will be in; they themselves are currently the biggest problem, not the economy or acts of racism.
Well said, mr b.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
I've thought for some time that the big democratic deficit was between Brussels and the British public. It would appear that the big democratic deficit is amongst the British public themselves.
Reasons?
Partly, I think the Labour Party was in government for too long. The centrist wing of the Labour movement grew too complacent thinking that it had done its job and took its eye off the ball. This led to the resurgence of the career agitators and the professional whiners and before you could say "John Smith's your uncle!", all of the good work done between 1985 and 2010 was undone at a stroke.
It's sad that in 21st century Britain, marching and protesting against the result of a general election / referendum is now seen, by a sizeable minority of the British electorate, as a perfectly normal and natural thing to do.
Secondly, social media may be partly responsible as well. Everybody lives in an echo chamber nowadays. The opposite view isn't argued with because it's never even seen. How many times have I read "but no-one I know voted Leave!"?
Which brings me to my third and final point. Why were the polls so wrong? The only poll that accurately predicted the result was the one done by Leave.EU on the eve of the poll. I don't know anything about their methodology but I can imagine that "Shy leavers" were to blame for the discrepancies in all of the others.
When people are embarrassed to reveal their voting intentions because they feel it's socially unacceptable (see the social media point above) then the socially acceptable point of view will appear to be more prevalent than it otherwise is, which will cause more people to conceal their true intentions which will cause ........... it's a 'Spiral of Silence' and it's very worrying for British politics.
If the UK adopted the WTO model then every single benefit becomes a reality. The EU then retains zero hold on the UK. It becomes more complicated if the UK wants the same tariff free access to the Single Market that it enjoys today. Some compromises are inevitable. The approach taken will depend to a large extent on who becomes the next Prime Minister. I believe Gove favoured the WTO approach but he is very unlikely to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
No, they'd planned on raising they're young family in a stable environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
Which is completely missing a key point. Nearly half the vote didn't agree, and if we are going to move on decisively those that did not agree need to be convinced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Otherwise.....
"I fear the wrong Tory front bench taking over the job will put us back too close to where we began. There's a risk they'll bottle it and accept free movement in return for a sweet trade deal, leaving the UK with a net migration rate that is still outstripping the infrastructure and resources. Hopefully the situation that is leaving farmers dependent of subsidies, and fishermen wanging dead fish back into the sea can be addressed."
And simply resorting to the remain level of cheap childish insults won't achieve this.
Looking for direction and a means to get there isn't "flapping" you cheeky wotsit. I dread to think what youre like when you ask directions on foreign holidays if you think it is! :p
It is what it is, the biggest risk now is that our representatives **** it up! And that risk is at its greatest if those yet to be convinced are left to be so, and if we end up with a pro Europe PM which looks likely the problem will be exacerbated.
Nothing's changed apart from a general malaise in the market place, fear to invest because no-one has a clue what's happening and the obvious extreme fluidity in pricing caused by exchange rate fluctuation. Oh, and having to explain to overseas partners how and why the result happened and whether we will exitQuote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
Agreed, but all considering it doesn't seem likely. Even with Gove at the helm I suspect he'd have been coerced by other MPs and lobbying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
I'm not an advocate of Theresa May, but if it ends up being her she has long held a mild Eurosceptisism and she was often touted as someone who would join the Leave side.
What does concern me is that the most positive aspect of her that anyone can point to is that she's thick skinned.
As Home secretary she is responsible for the Govt immigration policy and as has often been pointed out, we haven't even managed immigration from outside of the EU under her tenure.
The referendum result was to a large extent a vote against the establishment, our own as well as the EU. Quite strange that it brought together people like me and people like one of my best friends, who is a communist.
It is like a mass movement. It has been evident with the rise of UKIP.
It is also evident with the rise of Corbyn. The Labour hierarchy were complacent letting him on the ballot in the first place, and they let the genie out of the bottle.
Now they are trying to put it back in.
People power is on the move and it's not just here in the UK. People are fed up of the executive in walks of life.
Theresa May is very much establishment. It's very hard to be in a political party and not be, but Corbyn manages it.
I hope Leadsom gets in, although I doubt it. I think she may well bring a fresh approach.
Dear Mr Witton Park. This post has triggered an automatic top secret alarm within the deeper recesses of Moot Hall. This alarm is known as AIULPA, standing for Always Injured Ultra Long Post Alert. Please be advised that your forum name and number have now been logged and any subsequent triggering of the AIULPA will result in the automatic permanent suspension of your forum account (including any or all sock puppets).Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Sorry, was 1 bottle of Merlot down when I posted this.....drowning my Euro 2016 sorrows!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Never my intention to be rude. What I meant was that any one here under current rules will not be affected by any future change in immigration rules. Now, of course, if another nation decides to withdraw public funding for someone to be here, that's an entirely different matter. But if we keep our institutions and industries truly competitive we should still be attracting the cream of scientists to come here....not just from the EU but the rest of the world.
En vacances? Monsieur...ou et le gare de nord s'il vous plait? Sacre bleu! ce n'est pas dans ma derriere! pensez-vous tres drole? les francais- vous etes toujours cheese eating surrender monkeys!Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
We also live in a society of 'i have rights', and 'i have the right to...'. Many people will think they have the right to overturn the vote because they believe it went the wrong way. It's a poisonous and narcissistic mindset that has come out of claims culture, and the same one that is responsible for junk food eating and a lack of discipline in schools. I think it'll get messier too- if the next economic crash paralyses the banking system it'll be, 'i have the right to my benefits payment' and looting will ensue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitfall Harry
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Bit harsh to describe Nigel Farage as having a poisonous and narcissistic mindset
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36306681
For what it's worth I don't have a problem with people continuing to agitate for the political result they want, that's how democracy works, everyone has a right to an opinion and has a vote* to further that. One side losing doesn't justify censorship of opinion. Even if it was two thirds remain I'd consider it right and proper for those that wanted to leave to retain their right to want that.Quote:
"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."
As stated before, if you want stability and decisiveness. Go and convince people, don't sit there bashing out insults whilst trying to justify political censorship. Opinion is split enough, sneering will not help.
*unless you own a chain of media outlets, when you effectively have lots of votes
This seems pertinent
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36642662
I pointed this out to a remain voter to which her respons was "well, they are all idiots"
Treating people like idiots doesn't get them on board!
I agree with you and at General elections for example, the losing party doesn't go away and sulk for 5 years as Hislop pointed out on QT last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
However, they do tend to accept the result, look at their case that they put forward, analyse why it didn't convince the electorate and come back with a fresh approach and ideas, whilst maintaining a philosophy. Whilst a losing opposition does still make an effort to hold the new Govt to account, it is usually at least a couple of years before they renew their policies and start putting new manifesto ideas forward.
The over-whelming response to this referendum is as you have said "snearing".
I watched "This Week" last night and David Lammy was having a moan about 37% of the electorate taking us out of the EU.
Just looking at previous examples:
1. Scottish Devolution in 1997 was carried by 44% of the electorate on a 60% turnout.
2. Welsh Devolution in 1997 was carried by 25% of the electorate on a 50.1% turnout.
3. In 1975, 43% of the electorate kept us in the EEC on a 65% turnout.
So we have a precedent in this country for accepting the majority of those that turnout.
I actually think that is the correct way. Views such as Lammy's are assuming that if the abstentions were forced to vote they would have changed the result.
There's actually no evidence for this and I doubt it is the case.
That says it all really. It is views like this remain voter that was one of the main reasons I and many others voted "Leave". Before the vote it was widely view by remain that those over 50 should not have a vote as it is not their future. That those unemployed and uneducated should not have a vote as they are not informed enough to make that decision. My vote for "Leave" was mainly on my belief of democracy and that every person of voting age should retain their right to Vote. I did not want to wake up on that Friday morning to find I now belonged in a Country of bigots. Not just racism makes you a bigot. I am not saying every "remain" voter is a bigot but that is the message that was getting through before the vote and even more so since.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
My voice is as important as yours. We may not agree but i have a right to a say without being attacked and dismissed for it. There was no balanced debate during the campaign and there is still no balanced debate. I personally think that David Cameron is a coward and has walked away from his duties like a spoiled brat that has lost the game so gone home with his bat and ball. The news is still being censored by the EU to show the "leave" campaign as the ones jumping ship after causing all the chaos. There was a speech by Juncker here - https://www.facebook.com/Channel4New...type=2&theater
This has been censored. I watched this speech live on BBC news 24 and his most scathing attack is on David Cameron for his cowardice in not leading his country through to the conclusion that we have come to. His attack on Cameron was far more scathing than the attack on anyone else mentioned. It was obviously decided that that message was not in the interests of the EU. I am unable to find this speech as a whole and if you watch it you will see where it has been cut.
If you want to point blame look at all the children in this country that are not getting the education they deserve. Look at children in poverty. Look at our struggling health system, our fire service, our police service. So many things that are already wrong with our country has happened while within the watch of the EU. We did not vote for dictatorship so why are we settling for it within the EU.
I have a voice and if that makes me an idiot then so blooming be it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
Indeed; but presumably I, along with rest of the electorate, was also treated like an "idiot" but because I am not then I just laughed it off and voted in what I decided was the intelligent way and in the best interest of the country.
The logic of King's argument is that if you treat people like "idiots" some of them will deliberately and perversely vote like "idiots"; which presumably is indeed idiotic?
I suspect that privately "snake-oil salesman" Johnson et al do view many of the electorate as "idiots" (relative to Old Etonians/Oxbridge) but realised that sound-bites like "Let's Make Thursday Independence Day" is a more seductive way to garner votes than Osborne's hyperbolic warnings of draconian budgets.
And so they are: especially in the land of dreams that is Hollywood.
Here is some positive action.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36744736
We need to see much more of it.
"However, they do tend to accept the result"
I'd suggest the majority of remain voters accept the result tbh. Don't assume the shouty ones speak for the majority. And listen even less to pissy opinion pieces in the news. Im not seeing (after the immediate result) any genuine credible attempt by the electorate to overturn the vote. Agreeing with it being a good idea is another matter.
Has there been any genuine research in opinions on wanting to subvert the vote. Listening to Guardian readers rant on the Internet just after they've spat out there Prosecco might not give a balanced view.
The key word in there is credible, a petition with 4 million signatures isn't that, not by a long shot. Over 17.411 million shots might be getting there.
Your biggest threat is our own political establishment.
As in elections, in referenda we unfortunately cannot expect the MPs to tell us the truth. The result of course still stands, but that does not mean we have to like it - after an election if we lose do we shut up for 5 years?
What is amazing is how little planning there was for brexit - compare how much planning the SNP had done in the Scottish referendum.
A different issue is the future PM - May or Leadsom - surely any system that results in choosing between these two is by definition not fit for purpose.
For what it's worth at this late hour, i'm not referring to anyone on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
Straight through the next set of traffic lights then take your third RIGHT, keep an eye our for signs to the M666, take the slip on the LEFT (right if your SWP), stay on until Junction 43 at which point you'll understand the meaning of it all, there's a couple of roundabouts to negotiate and parkings a bit tricky but that's the way to Skegness alright. To be honest, ask someone else and you'll get different directions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Christ, I hope your not taking seriously what on that OTHER forum. Bunch of geriatric gum flappers barely step outside since the old and bold days.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
The quality of debate has been poor as long as I can remember which goes back to Thatcher. The election campaigns and confrontational debates do nothing and for some reason the media always has to put a spin on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Even the so called Independent is anything but.
However, there are a few things to pull you up on. The SNP had to plan and could plan as they were one party. They were always likely to win as well and so they could put forward a plan with a degree off certainty. They aren't so keen now though with the advanced powers they have.
The ability to end austerity by tax raising, but they chose not to. Not so easy after all.
It is astounding that Cameron and the Government didn't pan more for Brexit. I don't know if it was complacency. But they were the only ones who could plan as they were the only ones in a position to act.
Now when it comes to May or Leadsom, I think it's harsh to judge either in the way you have. Parties always pick leaders and not the public. They might be OK. Only time will tell.
They cannot be any worse than the recent incumbents.
UKIP have had 23 years to concoct something resembling an exit plan, it was there reason to exist after all! Where is it? The SNP concocted the white paper to win the argument first and foremost.Quote:
However, there are a few things to pull you up on. The SNP had to plan and could plan as they were one party. They were always likely to win as well and so they could put forward a plan with a degree off certainty. They aren't so keen now though with the advanced powers they have.
The ability to end austerity by tax raising, but they chose not to. Not so easy after all.
UKIP appear to have just gone...
Attachment 8501
Both parties in this should have had something better than what's transpired. Although the murky world of the upper echelons of the civil service could easily be better organised than were being told. Carney seemed to pull a few quid out of his arse fairly quickly.Quote:
It is astounding that Cameron and the Government didn't pan more for Brexit. I don't know if it was complacency. But they were the only ones who could plan as they were the only ones in a position to act.
But that might be admitting to high levels of influence of the unelected over the way the UK is run.
Yes - sort of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
I work in Defence procurement. We have seen some quotes now being produced in US $ rather than the expected £. This has not happened before in reaction to exchange rate changes. Additionally feed back has been received that a major European country will reduce its collaboration in information exchanges, directly related to Brxit.
We talk of the racial hatred that has been reported in the UK following the result of the referendum, this has also been felt by some UK Forces personnel in Europe. One RAF guy popped into his local shop as he had every day throughout his overseas posting. This time he was told to go f**k himself and never come back.
I should have been more explicit - any system that gives someone as inexperienced as Andrea Leadsom a significant chance of being the next PM is not fit for purpose. What were the MPs who voted for her thinking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I suppose the question is what equips you to be PM or other high offices of State. We don't tend to get a PM who's spent time at high levels of the diplomatic service or top executive positions in business, or Chancellors who've had a background in economics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
All our senior politicians tend to have CVs that wouldn't get them the job if they had to apply for it.
Andrea Leadsom may be inexperienced in the Commons, but she was given a ministerial position in her first term as an MP so she must have been well regarded.
She sat on the Treasury Select Committee on entering Parliament and following the Libor enquiry suggested Osborne should apologise to Ed Balls for false claims.
I like this - it shows an independent mind. Not frightened to ruffle the feathers of the person most likely to be the next PM at the time.
You may have seen today's Times, and listened to this morning's BBC radio 4 - at best she contradicts herself, and then blames others. Not a good look.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Different situations different spin to suit. When we had the referendum we were told by the remain side that "those over a certain age should remember that it is the future of your children that is at stake" some even suggested that over a certain age should not vote or have a lesser vote. Now that Andrea Leadsom had said she has more of a stake in the future due to the fact she is a mum all of a sudden she is being vilified. Bloody hypocrites!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Should remainers just shut up now https://politicalscrapbook.net/2016/...-just-spot-on/
After an election or a referendum, even if you lose the vote, you are entitled to go on making the argument.When a government in this country wins an election, the opposition does not say ‘oh that’s absolutely right I’ve got nothing to say for five years‘.
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTheSweeper
After all, the fruit of her womb might be the first figure from the Brexit camp that actually adds up . ;)
You've lost me; i'm not accusing you of being poisonous and narcissistic or of flapping.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
See post 60 and those just before it. I don't know who is suggesting they shut up anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrt
But there is a rise in questioning the validity of a result and it seems to come from the left of centre politically.
Sorry MrB, I mixed you up with another forum regular. Ironically not one posting on this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Which means my post makes absolutely no sense rather than the usual not much sense.