Yes, the dreaded bird flu, wiping out raptors all over grouse moors !
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Yes, the dreaded bird flu, wiping out raptors all over grouse moors !
Indeed. Some people do their best to avoid the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaning Hobbler
Truth?Quote:
Originally Posted by wharfeego
Nothing proven either way, jumping to conclusions again. The fact is that raptors catch bird flu and my examples are tested and proven cases from around the UK.
Just as possible as your scenario.
Are you seriously trying to claim that a bird such as the Hen Harrier has been driven to virtual extinction in England by bird flu ? The words cloud and cuckoo come to mind.
Do you not believe that raptors are persecuted by the shooting community?Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
Some people do their best to avoid the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
Never claimed anything of the sort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaning Hobbler
Every time a hen harrier goes missing the shooting community is blamed, usually without proof. Though when the harrier Highlander returned after going missing, there was a noticeable public silence from those that accuse, proven wrong, it wasn't shot or trapped the trakker had failed.
So with no proof or evidence about this one going missing, why the hell shouldn't I suggest bird flu as a possible cause? It is perfectly plausible and has as much evidence supporting it as it being shot.
The bird has gone missing, until it is found we don't know what has happened, when we do find it, the accusations can start.
Do I believe raptors are persecuted by the shooting community? Yes I do, but that is not 100% the problem by far. In my last job I spent many days in court with a RSPB representative and a BASC representative working together giving evidence against a gamekeeper I knew who was poisoning raptors (except he was proven innocent, which was laughable and I won't go into). I had him on something else shortly afterwards.
It is my belief that both sides should work together and the situation can and will slowly improve, but chucking accusations about which are not evidence led does not help.
Even wharfeego posts a nice photo of a buzzard but can't resist putting an accompanying sarcastic comment about it flying near grouse moors, I find that sadly pathetic, spoils a good photo and adds nothing. Just niggling and making shooters more entrenched and less cooperative.
You can hate grouse moors and shooting all you like, but they aren't going away in my lifetime, and will only do so when economically unviable.
It's quite possible they will go away in your lifetime.Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
Living in North Yorkshire I do not see my buzzard comment as sarcastic.
I have every reason to believe that all our raptors are in danger of being shot, poisoned and trapped by the nasty brigade, who will never de-entrench themselves from their butts.
Molehill, glad to see that you agree that raptors are persecuted by the shooting brigade, but that is not 100% the problem by far and its not bird flu, then why are Hen Harriers virtually extinct in England ?
Because they are and have been persecuted, by a minority of 'sportsmen' and their keepers. Bird flu is a fairly new disease and Raptor numbers were in decline before this.
I think Andy is making a fair point given all the shot filled evidence.He is not sarcastic, sad or pathetic in his actions and comments, but cares deeply about the destruction of our native wildlife by people who get their pleasure from killing things.
I know Andy cares very much about our wildlife, that is proven by his dedication. We are probably on parallel tracks aiming for approximately the same outcome but with very different views on how to obtain it and what it should look like.
I'm sure I come from a different country background (hunting, shooting, fishing in a nutshell) and have a vastly different approach to achieving the end result. I look at the problem from a totally different perspective to Andy and yourselves and am highly critical of many statements from the "anti shooting brigade".
And why not, I know that Avery and Packham etc. use anything to further their case, so chucking a "bird flu" spanner in the works is justified IMO. Go ahead and disprove it, which is exactly what shooters are asked to do every time a raptor goes missing without evidence.
I am a strong advocate of mediation and dislike legislation/ acts that ban actions or items, the dangerous dog act to the hunting act are an ineffectual farce.
So we have to agree to disagree on how we achieve our ideals.
Fair points molehill.Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
I too have a background of fishing and shooting, though I rarely fish these days, and I don't have rifles any more.
I catch moles for a living (a meagre living for sure) so I'm no 'squeamish townie type'.
Despite all that, I care very much about the Earth's fragile nature.
Seems that as I've got older I've quietly built up an aversion to the type of people who never appear to give a thought to what they do, not just in the shooting/hunting arena but in all walks of life, even questioning my own reasons for being on this planet.
It's probably some form of illness that I've got, perhaps an acute case of 'hipocriticalnessism'(made up word but you know what I mean!), and if anything it's getting worse.
So it's best not to take too much notice of my comments (I'm sure not many do anyway).
I expect your mole trapping gets you around a lot of countryside and farms not often seen by others. Certainly my squirrel trapping gives me free roaming in all sorts of wonderful woods and land that most never see and surprising what you observe when walking quietly day after day on your own. Off to do my traps now.
No conclusive evidence, but given the circumstances I would like to bet that bird flu wasn't the cause of this Goshawk's early demise...
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wo...ingham-estate/
I can't begin to tell you how mad that makes me, I'd better not say anymore or else I'll end up in the tower.Quote:
Originally Posted by wharfeego
Whilst on the Isle Of Mull a few years ago, the wildlife ranger told us that local farmers are compensated to the tune of something like 6 lambs a year for raptor kills. Apparently the farmers are really happy with it. I don't know if it would work on the grouse moors though. The gamekeepers seem to be a law unto themselves.
The difference being that farming is a necessity for the public (debatable of course) whereas gamebird shooting is a total non-necessity, purely carried out for fun for a minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Clough
On a closely related subject Mountaineering Scotland are have a public spat with its own membership
https://www.facebook.com/MountaineeringScotland
Related to a press release with the Scottish Gamekeepers Association
North Yorkshire - again!
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wo...rth-yorkshire/
Although a large raptor, I was always lead to believe that buzzards are more inclined to carrion than taking live prey ..... if so it makes their persecution even more pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by wharfeego
Reported on Grough - https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/20...orth-yorkshire No bird flu affected this bird, twas lead shot!
After a run round Walshaw Moor yesterday, I finally got round to ordering and reading Inglorious.
Very enlightening. Thanks Wharfeego for the many recommendations.
Yes, shot, not good.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPo
Out of interest, do you see many buzzards and kites up there? Down here there are masses, too many in a lot of people's opinion (nothing to do with shooting) and feel they have a detrimental effect on other wildlife. I think possibly the kite feeding centres help support an unnatural balance of those raptors.
There are constantly kites over the town gardens (which is nice to see) and diving down for scraps, even seen one diving and taking food off the pavement in the middle of town (like in medieval times in London). Gives an idea of the population of kites and quite common to see over 10 buzzards in the sky at once and kits permanently over the village. I also have sparrowhawk in the garden and a goshawk trying to eat my quail once - those sods decimate people's chickens in the valley - peregrine often in the sky as well, in case something escapes!
No shortage of hookbeaks here. But you won't see a hare, rabbit or snake and the moorland is pretty barren of life, other than sheep and a few small ground nesting birds during the summer months.
Lots of Kites as they have been released and fed at Harewood for years, though there are a number that have been found shot locally. Hardly any buzzards, though there has been one about over Otley recently. A lot of Kestrels and the occasional merlin on the moors. Nothing else though - no harriers, goshawks etc.
I spend a lot of time in Mid Wales - North of Llanidloes, and its a completely diffrent picture there with way more raptors.
Could do with more raptors round my allotment which would be decimated by the huge population of pidgeons and rabbits, if I didnt spend a fortune on nets.
Llanidloes was home for 25 years, not too far away for the last 5 years. Walking to our local pub today to watch the rugby there were a pair of peregrines circling overhead. Good omen for Wales I though. That went t**s up :(
Would they be of the Walter variety? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPo
https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/20...-in-nidderdale
More bad news from Yorkshire.
Interesting. I wonder if it's the same suspects who are responsible for the banning of a well known 62-mile event from accessing whole tracts of supposedly open access moorland?Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPo
I don't know the area, but if there are sheep and lambs around there I certainly wouldn't rule out a farmer being responsible for any shooting. Kites are not that popular with some sheep farmers around lambing time.
Get out of this one Mr Gamekeeper.
And guess what? He did.
Unbelievable.
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wo...video-footage/
https://youtu.be/tDWfQJ5U3Nk
Alledged? What an utter ****.
It's easy to keep this thread going... https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wo...ideo-released/
Here is another slant on it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-40107214
Don't know how they know why they blame other birds.
Might just get lost.
And from grough https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/20...d-eagle-losses
A link between Grouse shooting and the loss of Raptors! Who'd have thought it.
[QUOTE=molehill;632657]I don't know the area, but if there are sheep and lambs around there I certainly wouldn't rule out a farmer being responsible for any shooting. Kites are not that popular with some sheep farmers around lambing time.[/QUOTE
Don't understand this one? What the hell could a kite do to a lamb, unless it was already dead? They feed mainly on carrion and, despite their large wingspan, weigh only around 1kg and have no real strength!
Mainly carrion, but opportunistic and will take live prey or just about anything. I've watched a kite come down onto a pond and take a fish off the surface and others have reported the same - probably a dead or injured fish but any food will do when hungry.
Regards the lamb, I have met a farmer who watched a kite take a newborn lamb, dropped it in the hedge (too heavy I guess) but that alone did not endear it to the farmer and I'm sure others have seen similar and felt the same.
A quick Google: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index....-lambs.114572/
https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/20...rrier-vanishes
Still the slaughter continues. Are gamekeepers a law to themselves? Bloody grouse shoots have a lot to answer for, destruction of the moorland by burning and anything that threatens their precious grouse. The argument that Grouse shooting provides valuable employment is spurious. Good wildlife would provide much more. All for arrogant rich bastards to get pleasure from killing things.
Came over Woodhead last weekend and very fierce fires burning the heather, this allows the peat to be eroded and ruins the moor. They spent a fortune thereabouts trying to regenerate the moors, with helicopter seeding.
I am so pissed off to read this! What the hell is wrong with some people. Name and shame those that go to grouse shoots and lets see what happens then. I am in tears after reading that article.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPo