The Guide:
http://www.mountainrun.co.uk/news/gu...-graham-rounds
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Fair play Charlie and a good piece to read.
I wish you and your venture every success.
Good luck to them in my opinion. No difference to people paying a fortune to enter ultra races abroad. And sometimes in the lakes
It is a tricky subject. My first response was 'oh! no! More people going over and over the route', but the article clears large concerns up. The author is 100% correct, it is YOUR round, do it as you wish. Hopefully one day I will! I have been running and walking, and just looking at' parts of the route for pretty much 20 odd years and its changed, IMHO, not for the better. There are now clear tracks across the route when, in very recent history, it was a navigation route as much as stamina one. Much worse in my opinion, and I know others here will wildly disagree, are the club trains and the mass recce, and repeat recces (...of which to a degree I'm as guilty as any) carving a route out and taking the navigation/wild element away. But as the author states. Each to their own, me to mine, him to his. Change is inevitable!!
To be fair Ian, contrary to popular belief, most of the BGR covers the ground using well used paths and tracks with only small parts that could be considered eroded by the round itself and excessive recceing. I agree that the line off the back of Skiddaw is one such trod but even there, when I ran through a few weeks back, it didn't look any worse, or the bogs any deeper, than it was 3 or 4 years ago. As for the rest, apart from perhaps the ramp up Bowfell (still hard to find if you don't know where to look :) ) you're following well used Lakeland trails up Skiddaw, down Blencathra, over pretty much all of the Helvellyn range, most of the Langdales and Scafells, and most of the run in from Wasdale to Keswick (with a few little cuts here and there). The BGR's damage to the fells is still minimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy
What though does annoy me a bit, and I guess this could be levelled at some runners using the Dark Peak BG trains, is the idea of hardly knowing the route at all and being led round by a team of experts.
I totally disagree. Charles, in my opinion, is going against the traditions and ethics of the club by charging for his services and exploiting the growing popularity of the round. As harsh as it sounds, we all have a living to make....there are other jobs he could do to earn the £2, 000 odd he estimates he will get from this venture. As a member of the group he should be upholding and respecting this tradition. Read any book/article on the subject and this sense of tradition and camaraderie weaves through all accounts. The recent strava interview with Ricky lightfoot reflects this tradition too. I wonder what fred rogerson would say? The 'client' can't be to blame-they're a merely replying to an advert. Charles should know better-particularly given his strong lakeland connections and upbringing which he is so passionate to point out. The BG is not the same as a commercial ultra run.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsty
You are of course right if you consider the whole Stolly. But the back of Skiddaw is totally lacking the need for recce or navigation on the day. Night and clag excepting. Going up over Clough Head now has a line, even lower down through the boggy area near the farm. Going down and out of Dunmail is the same. I recall parking at Dunmail when I first became determined to look at it, so maybe 8 or 10 years ago and I couldn't spot any line, now its pretty obvious both sides. The route, though does, obviously require a lot of detailed recceing to work out the good lines which don't become so well used. But I guess this is off the original point tbh. It is I guess a case of horses for courses.
Regardless of the lines up Clough Head and down and out of Dunmail, from a navigation point of view I've been on proper clearly defined paths 12 foot wide on the BG in the dark, fog and pissing rain and had massive trouble navigating and staying on them 😊
There's a nice little book review in the spring fellrunner 1977 (pdf pages 46-48/p. 11 is also quite interesting):
http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/fellrunner.php
I wonder if Fred rogerson ever considered charging a transport mileage rate for assisting at access points on every round from July 1960-June 1972?
Hello bobster. I do understand your view on this, but as has been pointed out previously, to myself and others, the BGR Club isn't necessarily the same as the BGR and people are free to 'respect' the traditions or not. It really matters not a jot to me how another runner choses to accomplish his goals. Personally I'd like to learn the route and run it as much off my own back as possible, some are happy with the club train, some are happy with a paid guide. If I'm honest I'd say Fred Rogerson wouldn't really care and might wonder what the fuss is about...but I never knew him so am uninformed to comment. I do agree, to a point. that commercialism and the BGR doesn't sit too well but I don't really think the 'guide' is going that far, the response on fb and here has probably advertised it more than any article or advert he has put out there. Also I know of at least two book solely about the BGR, and at least one journalist who ran it and published an article. Where does commercialism start and finish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobster
I apologise for my grammar and spelling in advance! :)
Fair point!! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Personally I wouldn't want to pay to be guided round, but I am also a member of Dark Peak, and neither do I have any desire to join the DP traditional round...
I am tentatively looking towards doing a round in 2018 (next year will give me a much clearer picture of the realism of this), and I intend to do it alone, possibly with support at one or two of the road crossings. This is an incredibly tough task, and may even incur the wrath of the BG club, but I think what this thread shows is we are all different in our approach.
Travs, I can assure you that you won't incur the wrath of the BG Club, there is nothing mandating any approach to the round and a solo round isn't unusual. Some wish to become Club members, some don't.
If we were to stick to how Bob Graham did his long walk then we'd limit contenders to wear pyjamas and plimsolls and only have a team of four pacers. Things change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy
Very clearly then: commercialism finishes if the paying client expects to be accepted into a club that's a stalwart for amateur values.
I've no idea. The BG Club might know? The basic point is that The Bob Graham Round is an 'open feast' as it were. You, or I can do it as we please. It's then for you to conform to the clubs 'rules' to be accepted within it and to gain a completion number. My thoughts, so far as they matter, are that 'commercialising' (for want of a better word) isn't particularly good for the route as it increases footfall and erosion in some areas. The use of a guide is merely a choice of style of completion and then it is up to the BG Club to decide if that person recieves membership.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmond Jackson
For clarification, should it be needed. If I ever get to have a shot at the BGR I'm with Travs. His thoughts are pretty much mine. Though if I'm honest, I would like the completion recognised by the BG Club, which makes life slightly trickier for me for various reasons which I won't go into.
I am with Bobster on this.
Altruism has always been a big part of the BG club, and in today’s ever increasing "money is king" commercial world it is a breath of fresh air, it was one of the big things that drew me to the round. As has been said you can complete the route without being a member of the club, many have before now, but to become a member you need to adhere to the clubs rules and ethos.
I noted that on Facebook some but not all who supported him have a commercial interest in outdoor activities, just saying LOL.
Looks like the dark peak annual thing with added pence per mile to me. Both guided, one admits to it, the other one doesn't. Not my cup of tea but that doesn't make it a bad thing. Each to their own and best of luck, it's still a Lang wang.
I think the Dark Peak round does come in for a little bit of unnecessary criticism. It certainly seems to be one of the larger scale attempts each year, but they are hardly rampaging over the fells like a great wrecking-ball. Isn't it usually in May, which is not peak 'BG time'.... And I know at least one other large club which does similar...
As I mentioned above, it's not my cup of tea, but it's really just a more organised version of what most people do, with pacers, support etc...
For arguably the most successful club recently, the fact that more members seem bothered about the annual award for navigational cockups than attending the FRA dinner to pick up the massive haul of trophies won this year, I think that says a lot about the ethos of the club, hardly some soulless 'machine'....
Hope you enjoyed my speech..:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Travs
AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH. SOME THINGS SHOULD NOT BE COMMERCIALISED. FELLRUNNING IS A COMMON GOOD.Quote:
Originally Posted by stumpy
If you want to do the BGR then join a club, spend time getting to know the route, help out on other attempts, become attuned to the fellrunning culture. If you're not prepared to go down that route then stay away.
Nice sentiments, but not going to happen. The genie is out of the bottle.
Who "owns" the Bob Graham route?
Not sure where you're coming from there Grumpster?
Agree with you but it is not going to be that way for everyone, some want a quick fix. Its a real shame that some BGR aspirants, don't quite share the love of the mountains in the same way many of us do. I guess that's not much different from many of my friends who ski annually, and have absolutely no interest in their surroundings! Its just a tick. being realistic I doubt that anyone is going to make a mint out of supporting BGR aspirants.Quote:
Originally Posted by blencathrafrommykitchen
Very enterprising. My gut instinct is to despise the idea, but who am I to criticise? When I first contemplated doing a BGR and then contemplated the logistics required, including the need to have a lot of fell-running friends, I did offer to pay a work colleague to do road support. He agreed to do it for free, and a stirling job he did too. I would like to think that such proposals would just slink away and die a natural death. But what if it didn't? What if it took off and became as popular (or even a hundredth as popular) as the National 3 Peaks? There's a thought! Imagine it took off like the UTMB: fifteen hundred runners setting off from Moot Hall on a mid June evening accompanied by pulsing carpet-beating music; with well stocked CPs at road crossings complete with medical staff, masseurs and toilets - and a dibber on every peak! Hmm - I wonder whether I could get on the Enterprise Allowance Scheme with that one?