Hi Gaz... I just saw the results, you destroyed me by about 3 and a half minutes...!
It was the flat sections that did the damage for me!
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Hi Gaz... I just saw the results, you destroyed me by about 3 and a half minutes...!
It was the flat sections that did the damage for me!
Watched the coverage of the European cross-country yesterday. There's no doubt they are fantastic athletes, but surely somewhere in Europe they could find something that resembles a "proper" cross country course.... Man-made obstacles and short grass don't really equate to a testing course in my view...
Great Britain did well as always. The mixed relay was very interesting, though maybe they should allow the men and women to run in whatever order they like, similar to in the swimming.... would make it very unpredictable!
Back in action tomorrow at the Warwickshire Champs. 10km. Should be a good test, feeling reasonably good after a solid amount of training over xmas, but not done any real speed work.
A fair few fell runners scattered through the Yorkshire's start list.
A good tough race today in cold conditions. About 280 lined up on the start, of which I finished about 120th, and 45th master (of around 125), 39:19 for 10km.
Was a good course for those that like the hills, with a fairly sapping climb right near the start, and a vaguely technical downhill through some dark muddy woods. Obviously I'd have preferred a lot more hills, as I made up much time on the ups and downs, and predictably dropped back on the flatter sections. Started to hit my rhythm by the 3rd lap (of 4), unfortunately we were already 20 minutes in by then!
A good day for the club, as we were U17, U20 and Men's champions. My masters team were down in 8th with a slightly depleted team, but in all honesty we'd probably only be looking at top 6 at best with a full strength team. I did feel a little more pressure on the final lap to hold my position, as I expected to therefore be a counter, and indeed I was 2nd of 4 counters. In the league fixtures I'm way off being a counter, usually making up part of the 'b' team score.
Next weeks B'ham league fixture is back at the same venue. Unfortunately I'll be AWOL at Marsden-Edale.
Hope everyone who competed in their respective county champs had a good day today...
Pete
I'm definitely getting slower (not that I was ever that fast) - got lapped by the winner on Saturday. A club mate who happened to be spectating just after this point shouted "well done Graham - you're in second place".
Cross country enthusiasts might be aware there's a petition/campaign to equalise the distances that men and women run at XC in England - for anyone interested there's a group petitioning ECCA and this article explains some of the thinking behind different options for equalisation.
Midlands Champs at Woollaton Park in Nottingham on Saturday, 12km.
Looking forward to it, but raced there a year ago in the nationals in my first xc race for nearly 20 years, and had an absolute mare. If it's anything like last year it'll be a tough course and very heavy going.
Different section of the park used for the Midlands compared to the National. It'l still have fast and boggy sections though.
Northerns at Harewood House on Sat. 2 big laps of a new venue so not too sure what to expect, the OS map shows a couple draggy hills but don't know much else.
Apparently it's a dry run for next year's National.
It's the thin end of the wedge. Next you'll be asking for equality in pay and rights... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainringlet
Imagine the outcry if someone tried to organise a women's fell race that didn't go to the summit, but the men's did.
Running just x2 laps will certainly make a change. I'm hoping the opulent gardens of Harewood will distract me from the painful task at hand. And it should rule-out being lapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by ba-ba
[QUOTE=noel;638031
Imagine the outcry if someone tried to organise a women's fell race that didn't go to the summit, but the men's did.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps Noel you merely omitted the words "now in 2018" rather than, tut tut, have failed to study your history, in which case I refer you to page 48 of the Summer 2016 Fellrunner where under 1975: And Women? you will read that once upon a time women did not compete in eg the Langdale Horseshoe but just ran up and down Pike O' Blisco, etc etc.;)
At the Mountain running trials races (and indeed the international championships) the women do less distance and climb than the men, though this is often through missing an earlier loop (i.e. around Latrigg when using Skidda)
Indeed. I used to be FRA International Selection Chairman and this was never a burning issue with anyone. It can be argued that the men's race is the men's race and the women's similarly and the respective heights/distances don't matter a fig. If the distances in XC are made the same (and I am completely indifferent) then what exactly would have been proved?Quote:
Originally Posted by ba-ba
This is not the same point as, say, completing a classic course like a marathon or Ennerdale, where to only run 7/8th of Ennerdale doesn't have quite the same cachet (apart from other practical difficulties).
But XC? It's only a glorified park run.
It's an issue now for plenty of people interested in XC and other races - you may have missed the debate about the LDMT trophies for example? Women running shorter distances perpetuates a (hopefully outdated) message that they're not as capable as men, as that's where different distances originate from. What equalising the distances would 'prove' is that the organisers don't believe this. It's an atavism that is straightforward to rectify and hopefully one day will look as archaic as women being excluded from full-length fell races.
If it's just a glorified parkrun, great, let's all run the same distance ;)
With only 47 finishers at Ennerdale last year that's a big slice of cachet for everybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
In the spirit of equality, with women allegedly being more able to run very long distances [citation needed], I'd like some of the really long fell races (eg. Buttermere) to be shortened slightly for the men. Maybe by about half would suit me best. I'm not sure my masculine body can cope with the rigours of such an event.
FRA and race organiser: I look forward to hearing your response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainringlet
No intelligent person now believes that women are incapable etc...and your need to " 'prove' that organisers don't believe this" by equalising distances is slightly off the point that the women's race is still the women's race - even if it were to be twice as long as the men's.
As to atavism: it is of course ironic that it was women, and not men, who determined the distances that women should run for XC since in the dim and distant past athletics was governed by two different organisations.
I was struck by the curse of Wollaton Park again today in the Midlands Champs. After last year's shocker at the nationals, I returned determined to have decent run. I even had a proper rest, with no training since Wednesday, to ensure I was fresh, something I barely do for even long fell races.
So a few minutes in, feeling great and running easily, hit the first downhill and bang goes my calf. I knew immediately it was just a strain as I've done it before. Tried to run it off for another 400m or so, but as soon as it hit a steady ascent the pain intensified and shot down my calf again, and I knew it was over.
Slightly embarrassing to have to walk back through all the spectators after just five minutes. And was rather annoyed at overhearing a spectator comment that I was faking it and didn't fancy it, presumably due to the mud and the hilly section that I pulled up on. But live to fight another today.
Hello and well done to GazB of Wolves&Bilston who looked to have ran well and by my count was well inside the top 100. Good luck at Mickleden next weekend.
Hopefully will be recovered for the next league fixture in a fortnight, followed a fortnight later by the nationals. But of slightly more pressing concern is the Long Mynd Valleys next weekend!
Hope everyone else had fun at their respective regional champs...
Hopefully I don't have to visit Wollaton next year!
Oh bummer Travs. Wondered where you were at the finish. Wasn't my best xc race of the winter - my lack of miles meant the longer distance was a struggle, and a ongoing cold didn't help. The course was a test, especially the bit near the end of each lap where the sucking mud was like quicksand! Good luck at LMV.
Interesting analysis of Northers v Mids v Southerns: Which race is strongest and what your position suggests you'll get in the National: (Will Mycroft, the person who has done the analysis, is an acquaintance here in Sheffield. Pretty sure he's meant to have finished his PhD now but maybe doing stuff like this)
So 100th at Northerns puts me at 251st come Parliament hill - which closely matches my National result last year (253rd, last year my northerns result of ~125th was skewed by illness).
This year I'm hoping 3 weeks of more directed training (i.e. less time fell bashing for the moment) will help me swing keep moving in the 'right' direction, beating the formula to trouble to top 200. We shall see.
That is a really interesting article.
Interesting to note the perceived 'weakness' of the Midlands Champs. I'm sure I read somewhere (on this very website) that the B'ham league XC is up there with the best in the country (I appreciate there's more to the midlands than just Birmingham).
To add to the above, I was talking to a club member on Saturday, who told me that your performance in the B'ham league XC (only applies to Div1 of course) is roughly equivalent to what you can expect in the Midlands Champs. This is because the addition of the other top midlands teams from outside the B'ham area, such as Bristol, Notts, Charnwood, etc, is canceeled out by the removal of the strong University teams who are in the Div 1 league, such as the awesome Loughboro, and the likes of B'ham Uni and Warwick Uni.
I haven't yet seen this weekend's midlands results, but having seen some club-mates finish, it seems to ring true. For myself, my only league finish this year was approx. 160th. Multiplying this by the factor of 4.5 would put me around 720th in the nationals. Given that the league result I got was on a hilly course and I probably finished higher than I should, i'd probably suggest around 200th would be realistic for a typical league fixture. This would equate to around 900th in the nationals, which I think is more realistic.... I was 1250th last year in a shocking run, and hoping to clear the top 1000 this year.
When down in the Midlands, my best Brum Div1 results were around 50th. My Midlands champs were 56th and 62nd, so Brum Div1~Mids is roughly correct.
Birminhgham league is one of the best leagues in the country (alongside one of the London leagues), but there isn't another single league that takes in such a large chunk of populous. There are large and small, good and 'poor' quality local leagues, but none with a geographical range from Stoke to Cheltenham, Telford to Northampton, encompassing several chunks of population around Birmingham (Greater Manchester league is pretty good. I'd love a Yorkshire league).
I've seen the results now. A club-mate with similar ability, albeit I've been beating in the last few xc, came 212th. And the guys I was stalking up until my calf injury were around 130th-140th... so I guess somewhere 160th-200th is fairly accurate for me.
We managed to come 7th in the teams, which is not too bad I suppose. I heard some comments on the finish line that 'Coventry Godiva are well down" which I guess is a sign that Cov are still seen as quite a heavyweight name. I suppose with a full strength team, somewhere between 4th and 6th would have been possible, but the top 3 teams (Notts, Birchfield, Tipton) were streets ahead.
I have an MCAA gold medal from the Midlands XC champs in 2014 - they had a 'B-tier' competition for teams not finishing in the top X for Y number of years. Courtesy of >Y fallow years and us (City of Stoke) managing to get 6 people out (including a couple up top) we came 4th overall and first B-tier club, despite performing in the top-5 of the Birmingham league that season (think we finished off 4th with just the Unis and Tipton beating us?)
So maybe you Cov lot are playing the long game? ;)
:D it's a possibility...!
I really don't know what goes on within the club. In my previous lives I was always quite involved with my clubs... as a local footballer I was fairly 'senior' and was treasurer for a bit... in kickboxing I was an instructor and competed at pro level, so was again fairly senior.
But at Godiva, I just turn up and run. I don't really know what the prime focus is for the club as a whole. Track & Field? Cross Country? The real elite runners (of which there are a few)?
Seems to me that in a relatively large club everyone seems to have their own focus and commitment. My part of the club (the seniors) seems to be the most club-like, with a regular core at training, and representing as a team at events.
Really I shouldn't be commenting... i'm off doing fell races every couple of weeks and especially at this time of year it means missing out on xc fixtures!
Back to the XC and a Birmingham League fixture on Saturday at Wolverhampton. From what I remember from racing there earlier in the season at the relays, it's a fairly flat course with quite a few twists and turns. Hopefully i'll put in a decent run in the final league fixture, and final race before the nationals. Although the legs were very heavy in training last night, so not looking forward to the no doubt fast and furious pace...!
Good luck everyone else racing in their respective leagues this weekend...
Tough race today at Wolverhampton. Generally a fast course, but some very sticky and slippy sections. Was pretty happy with my own performance and finished 182nd, personally expected 200+
My usual tactic in xc has been a fast start to stay out of trouble, and then spend the rest of the race drifting slowly back through the pack, praying for the end. But today, after the first short lap and the race had settled down, I then only lost one place over the next half an hour or so, so I finally felt like I deserved my position, rather than an 'imposter' living off my fast start.
Hello to GazB and well done, you panned me by about 2 and a half minutes if not more. Great turn out for your lot.
We finished 8th today, and 9th overall for the league. We didn't get a full 'b' team out today (I was 1st counter for our b team today which shows we were slightly lacking in depth today), which means our b team sadly dropped from 9th to 12th for the season. A bit cheesed off at this. Admittedly I've missed a few xc fixtures this season due to Fell commitments, but if the club said "look we're stuck and need you to run or we won't have a team", I'd double up and suffer through, as I did earlier in the season.
We seemed to get a decent 'front end' out today though, and our a team had their best performance of the season. Hopefully we can progress next season, and I may even challenge for the back end of the a team (was only 70secs off being 6th counter today).
Just the Nationals left then. After reading ba-ba's interesting article on league performance and it's bearing on national position.... well I've had 161st and 182nd in the league this year... multiplied by the "midlands factor" of approx 4.5, means I could be looking at 720th-820th at Parliament Hill... that seems a massive jump on last year when I was 1250th. My aim had been top 1000 this year, perhaps I'll be a bit more optimistic and hope to get closer to 900th...
Cheers Travs. We'll done mate. I missed out on the counters for the 1st time in a while. By 1 place! Was tough going so thankfully a bit short. Been struggling with injury since November, so I'm just hanging on and slowly slipping back. Our club put on a good show and we also managed to finish 11th. Just the intercounties for me now (I am a desperate call-up for Staffs as so many have dropped out) on the country til October. Good luck in the national all!
Yes I thought it must have been a bit short, when I looked at my watch on the line and it said 36 mins! I wouldn't get close to that on the road for 10km! Probably about 9km I think.
Saturday!
Looking forward too it! Have been wanting to run a Parliament Hill National for a while now but not yet managed to. Tuesday's session felt good, pre-race rest day today. Just the 3h drive, 15min tube and 15min walk to negotiate now.
In the 2012 running a friend of mine (the same one who ended up looking at a moose's arse in Norway from the Wildlife encounter thread) got what you'd call a 'very good start'
Yes looking forward to Saturday. Unfortunately I've been suffering with a bad calf and I'm hoping to be ok for Saturday, it's probably 70:30 in my favour that I'll be on the start line at the moment, but there's too much coming up for me to risk doing any serious damage.
Final xc of the year for those of us who have no chance of getting near the inter-counties...!
Going down on the train to Euston from Cov, shall be there for the full day. I hear it's going to be a cold one.
A great day at the nationals today in London, always a great spectacle, and standing at the top of the hill watching the other races come steaming up the first hill, with the Skyline of London in the background, in the sun, was fantastic (although bitterly cold).
As for the race, well it didn't go well for me. Was running well for the first 15 minutes, feeling fresh and holding my position well. But around that point my calf unsurprisingly started to play up and I was pretty much reduced to a jog for the remainder of the race. Quite literally hundreds passed me and I trundled in to finish about 1500th in 59mins.
I dread to think how many places I actually lost. One of my teammates who I usually beat by minutes, came past me within about 800 metres of the finish, and beat me by a minute, so I reckon I lost a minimum of 4 or 5 minutes and I suspect probably a bit more than that.
Was a great course, very muddy and slippy in places, with quite a few hilly sections. Bit of a shame for me that I got held up at the top of the first hill in the congestion, and then a second time going down the hill on the other side, but in the end it was irrelevant due to my calf issues.
But still, I finished (which after 15 mins was looking an impossible task), and didn't do any major damage, and can rest it properly now.
As for the team, we finished about 49th team which is down on last year, but I thought the standard was a lot higher this year. A bit gutted as I was in line to be a scorer today if I'd been fit and raring, in fact my issues look to have cost us 4 or 5 team places. Not to mention another team mate had to pull out with a calf problem. But on the other hand we beat pretty much all the other teams from around the 'mid midlands' with the exception of Tipton Harriers.
Tempted to go back in May and watch the elite runners there, in whatever the competition (European Champs or something similar I think).
Night of 10km pbs on the track?
Not a great day for me. Started well (too well?) but dropped a lot on the last half or so. Latent tiredness from marathon training? 291st probably about par with previous years and the w races this year but was hoping for (and am capable) of more.
Harewood House leeds next year. Good course, similar to today but more open.
As I approached the venue I heard it announced over the loudspeaker, and to me it sounded to me like some kind of European or Home Counties international event, and I got the impression it was XC.Quote:
Originally Posted by ba-ba
May be wrong though.
Well done ba-ba on an impressive performance.
XC finishes in early March.
By all accounts the 10km event is great fun, they have a beer tent over the back straight, lane 3 beer-n-cheer all the way around the track and spectator races. I might be tempted!
There's nothing impressive about popping half way through a race.
Still a lot better than most of us will ever manage.
A slightly disappointing end to the xc season for me, but overall it's been very positive. My aims were to use it to improve on my fell running, and it's coincided with a number of pb's on the fells. Also managed to progress to a position to where I'm regularly beating people at xc who I was a long way behind 6 months ago.
Hopefully I can continue to progress next season, and when I do race on the xc i'll be looking to improve again. But with some long-distance ambitions over the next 18 months or so (including two tough ultra races next December) I may well have to accept that the xc will again have to be secondary in my plans.
yes, I need to remember that XC is a means to an end as far as I'm concerned - improve myself on short fell races and build a bit of speed. But I have started enjoying the cameraderie and the championship XC races so get a bit invested in them.
Yes, exactly the same for me. I'm a fell-runner at heart, but the only time I can run as a team is in the XC and road/xc relays. Have found myself criticising myself a bit too much after a poor performance on the xc, and also need to remember it's to help my fell-running....
But when you put that vest on, it's hard to look at it as anything other than a race to the death!
I also see it as paying back to my club. I take all their training, coaching, facilities, for a frankly minimal yearly fee, then disappear to the other end of the country to race on the fells on my own, so suffering on the xc for the team is the least I can do.
2 years ago at donnington park I was our 11th counter in 241st place. That was a great team day out (and a good night out after!). The 6-man team were 6th, 9-man 12th and, had Andy Hayes raced (he was on the entry list) we would have had a bronze as he'd finished 2nd and 3rd in previous years.
This year I was 6th in 291st, last year 5th in 253rd so we're struggling a bit for numbers at the moment - different racing priorities (e.g. Andy ran 7:51 3000m at Glasgow GP on Sunday; 3rd place at Northerns is targeting 2:15 at London), injuries, a few guys have had kids and there's a bit of a shift in the ages of our senior men. My housemate is trying to get a bit of camaraderie back and our Northern 12-stage team is looking handy if we can get 2 more! Those team days out are really special when you have a lot of guys out.
I don't make it to track all that much over winter, then piss off to the fells in the summer but when free I try my best to be available for the championship races. I'm doing the Northerns on the Sunday of a stag weekend...