The UK government has not yet published officials documents saying under what circumstances EU citizens can reside in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
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The UK government has not yet published officials documents saying under what circumstances EU citizens can reside in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
If you knock at my door begging for a loan sure I can say under what conditions I am prepare to lend, do I not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
Dont forget how you Brits painted the Greece as the country where nobodz ever pays taxes with dentist and lawyers reporting close to zero income... Now saying it was evil the EU imposed austerity...?
How about this:
we could argue for ever the good and bad of Brexit, without agreeing. Not that debating is a bad thing, on the contrary, but here my question:
Under what conditions would you allow EU citizens to reside in the UK, including "new" ones as well as those already there? Bear in mind 1) there are also UK citizens in the EU, and they will probably face the reciprocal fate, and 2) for a deal to be agreed, trade or not, it needs approval by all 27 parliaments.
I voted for Leave primarily for trade. The EU strangles trade and has been useless at signing trade deals. We often hear of the 50 or so trade deals, but check out the EU website and you will find most of them are the UK and French territories.
They count the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Gibraltar.....
MY next reason was that our politicians are basically crap these days. I think a lot of this is because it is so easy for them to pass the book.
Westminster can blame the EU, the devolved assemblies blame Westminster, The Councils blame everyone...
I want to be able to hold our politicians to account better.
In terms of immigration, I would keep freedom of movement. But not freedom of movement to work. So I would have no issue with someone who flies in to Dublin and cross the border to UK as they can do now.
Gambatte, I think you've bought into propaganda there. The populist press whipped up a frenzy about this because it sells newspapers. Self determinism was probably a key driver for most people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambatte
Before we joined the Common Market, there were perfectly adequate mechanisms for movement of people between european countries. No reason to think that will not continue despite what the scaremongerers would say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
You are deluded Wheeze. You may have had good intentions about your desire to be self determined but...
the populist press whipped up a frenzy of fear about immigration and that was totally the main driving force behind voting for leave ( which obviously now maybe they are realising is ridiculous and unworkable)
Well that is apart from the fact that actually the main driving force was they didn't have a clue about what they were voting for.
I hope you don't feel guilty. I know my dad does.
That supposes that people knew the main driving force behind voting to Remain.Quote:
Originally Posted by millipede
The problem the Remain campaign had was that they had nothing to sell.
Cameron / Osborne from the Tory perspective wanted a reformed EU.
Corbyn / McDonnell from the Labour perspective wanted a reformed EU, but a totally different set of reforms to the Tories.
Even Nick Clegg was calling for extensive reform.
The argument has often been made against Leavers, but what type of Leave?
Yet the Remainers I have mentioned above, all wanted a different type of Remain. The biggest issue was that none of them were capable of delivering what they wanted.
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by millipede
Nobody voted to leave with any idea of what that meant, since the political drivers themselves clearly didn't know - as we now see every day. But people have always been foolish enough to buy a pig in a poke.
Voting for freedom to make our own decisions as a country is a lovely idea, along with being in favour of "motherhood and apple pie", but back in the real world...
I feel sadness for the working people who will pay the price for our leaving and annoyance with the intellectually self- indulgent, well-off professional classes and politicians who will float above whatever mess we finally end up with. "Oh dear, that hasn't turned out well has it, but another bottle of Petrus, shall we?"
I am going to Belgium for a holiday tomorrow. I hope people will treat me with pity.
The pig in the poke was Major and Maastricht. Until then the EEC had worked reasonably well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Quite strange how after 5 years of Major, The Tories slumped to their worst election result ever.
Now some portray him as some sort of enlightened sage.
But Graham people were sick of the EU fleecing us to maintain an elite. They were also tired of people coming over here on the take. It's bad enough having a take, take , take attitude at home without spreading it to Europe as well. This country and Europe couldn't and can't go on like that. Subsidising the poorer members of the EU will inevitably draw our standing of living down - no question. That is the whole purpose of the EU: sacrifice of the richer nations to the poorer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
What the UK has to do now is to de-regulate as quickly as possible to make this place the best to do business. The chances of our government doing that are remote, but that is the best way of moving forward from this.
So what is foreign aid for? Apart from salving our colonial-past conscience?Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
I don't believe a country (or anything else) should be run based on anecdote and particularly those reported on behalf of our corrupt media barons living in tax-free havens.
I am a great believer in having the big battalions on your side: in shooting wars, in sport or trade and in economic terms Europe is a big battalion and plucky old UK "the best place to do business"? is not. Still, Austria manages to pootle along on tourism. It's not quite as great as the Austro-Hungarian Empire was - but it gets by.
Exactly. That is when a referendum was needed. That is when our membership of a 'common market' morphed into a road to political union. We should have been asked then but were not. The poison was buried only to bubble up later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Delusion - an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument.
I do not think a desire to move away from increasing control by an unelected elite is idiosyncratic and certainly was not contradicted by reality. I voted for the fundamental pillar of democracy. The ability to vote in and vote out those in power.
I would allow EU citizens to reside here under very similar conditions as now. The only difference would be that they would be governed exclusively by British laws and courts. The European Court of Justice would no longer be the final arbiter. For UK citizens in the EU they should be governed by laws of the countries they reside in. They would be subject to the ultimate authority of the ECJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambatte
I put together a draft manifesto before the last GE for discussion on FB. This was my contribution on Migration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
Migration
• Retain freedom of movement for EU nationals and extend it to the Commonwealth.
• Look to remove visa requirements for other countries where reasonable.
• Streamline the residency process so that once people are established here and want to remain, they can do so with a sensible and minimal level of bureaucracy. All should be able to apply for residency with a few minor caveats mainly linked to convictions.
Residency should be an option after 3 years.
A fast track system should be brought in for those already here.
• Free access to NHS emergency services.
• Other medical and welfare provision should not be available and should be covered by insurance until residency is confirmed.
• Employers who recruit employees from overseas must provide fully comprehensive health insurance for their overseas staff who do not carry it.
• Work towards similar arrangements for UK citizens travelling and working abroad.
• Strengthen the border force and security.
We should be more open not less. I think most people are fairly relaxed about immigration and a few simple measures such as set out above will alleviate general concerns that have been expressed in recent years.
If employers genuinely cannot recruit from the UK, the imposition of health insurance will add around 5% to the cost of employing a foreign national working full time on minimum wage and less for higher earners, subject to age and fitness.
These policies will not put up barriers but will reduce some of the pull factors.
No bad. But it still opens a lot of headeaches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
Do they need a UK job to reside in the UK? Minimum income (which would almost certainly exclude workers in agriculture) and/or savings?
What benefits would EU citizens in the UK be entitled to. NHS? Child benefit? Pregnancy grant? Unemployment? State pension (of course, after paying NI contrib)?
Perhaps you don't know but as of now, EU citizens in the UK are entitled to pregnancy grant and child benefit, whereas citizens from non-EU contries are not (no, they don't get a discount when it comes to pay taxes).
What fees for Universities? RIght now French undergrads in UK universities pay the same fees as their English mates, 10k/yr or whatever. But students from outside the EU are asked much higher fees.
Undergrad students in universities here in Germany pay all the same fees no matter what country they comes from, few 100s/yr.
What does that mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
They are all issues to be discussed and thrashed out but they are hardly insurmountable. I still don't understand the justification for your comment that EU citizens will be sent back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambatte
The major sticking point at the moment is the EU's insistence that EU citizens living in Britain remain under the jurisdiction of the ECJ even after we have left the EU. To consider how unreasonable this is imagine if the USA insisted that all American citizens living in Germany should be subject to the US Supreme Court rather than Germany's courts.
This is just one example of the EU's unreasonableness and intransigence in the Brexit negotiations.
It means that British Law is supreme in the UK not EU law. The final court of appeal becomes the House of Lords.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
I hear on the news that some business leaders in Germany are now lobbying to allow UK to have an easier deal in the negotiations with the hope of keeping the UK in Europe. Apparently they think our withdrawal will have catastrophic effects for the EU.
If they'd have done this when Cameron said "we need a different deal or we'll leave", this may have worked. It's all a bit after the horse has bolted now.
Would not think you will get very far with that idea with the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
I agree they are not insurmountable. But 1) it's a big failure of the Brexit campaign not to have discussed them, never and 2) hard to imagine a trade deal, or any deal, will be agreed before these questions have been settled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
These people do not have a VISA right now, they don't need one. And one day, overnight, they will presumably need it. What criteria will they need to satisfie and how long will they have to get it? This is something they don't know, nobody does not even the Home Office, and I bet is giving them immense stress.Quote:
I still don't understand the justification for your comment that EU citizens will be sent back.
What about those with job, house, family, friends and everything else? Right now they don't know whether they will be allowed to stay in the country.
Personally I think the Government should have made an unequivocal declaration early on after the vote that all EU citizens living in the UK would have the right to stay. In fact that is what Leave campaigners like Gove and Johnson wanted. Even so I think the prospects of them being made to leave are zero, not least because people acquire rights under international law anyway (Vienna Convention).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambatte
But surely they can't expect anything different can they, where else does a government have jurisdiction over its 'citizens' abroad, diplomatic immunity excepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
I agree, I would have been tempted to vote Remain myself if the EU had shown more flexibility. The problem was they knew that Cameron was going to campaign for Remain come what may, which weakened his hand considerably. The deal he came back with was nothing like what he had set out to achieve in his Bloomberg speech a few years before.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
That is why the UK negotiators shouldn't make the same mistake again. They must mean it when they say they will walk away if the deal is a bad one. Personally I would be considering that course of action now.
Gambatte, its highly unlikely that any change in immigration policy will be enacted retrospectively.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the UK does not know at what point in time the EU residing in the UK actually arrived.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
So if a German in London says "I can stay here without VISA before I came before the referndum" how can they possibly prove him wrong?
I think the Government has been unequivocal.
All EU citizens will be allowed to stay.
What is really being discussed is the reciprocal and on going rights such as ability to relocate family, right to residency, right to social support.....
Bear in mind you don't know when they arrived.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
What if a German comes on April 2019, maybe via Ireland, and says he was there since before the referendum?
Just an exampleQuote:
Originally Posted by bigfella
A UK citizen living in France is in displute with the French goverement has the right to go to the ECJ.
A french citizen living in the UK has to go to the house of lords who enacts the law as set by the UK goverement (i.e the defendant). The EU would love that.
The problem there is the EU wants their citizens to have the same rights as at moment such as to relocate family. But an Australian never had those rights. So why should a french man have them but an Australian man does not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Oh what a can of worms this vote is, and they all thought it would be so easy.
Well, France also has the choice, they too can leave the EU and take back control.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
Gambatte, the referendum date is irrelevant. Any legal change to immigration status will have an enactment date and non-UK travellers will have a passport date to prove when they arrived.
Disclosure: I would very much prefer the UK remains in the EUQuote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
But that items seems reasonable to me, example:
A USA citizen living in France in dispute with the French government about a matter of EU law can go to ECJ (who enact EU laws as set by the EU of which France is a member).
A USA citizen living in France in dispute with the French government about a matter of French specific law can go to one of the French supreme courts (who enact French laws as set by the French government).
A French citizen living in the USA in dispute with the USA government goes to the supreme court of the USA.
I don't see how that is different to your example Patrick and I think it would be unreasonable for either side to argue about it.
From Wikipedia:
"The ECJ is the highest court of the European Union in matters of Union law, but not national law. It is not possible to appeal the decisions of national courts to the ECJ, but rather national courts refer questions of EU law to the ECJ."
Someone would only be able to appeal an argument with the UK government to the ECJ if it was a matter of EU law interpretation (same as now), of course if the UK leaves the EU, I don't think EU law could still apply in the UK.
(of course I'd like the UK to remain in the EU)
This. ^^^ Except, they all (pretended) it would be so easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
We are talking about those here now and arriving prior to the date of leaving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambatte
How we deal with this after leaving will be a matter for the Government of the day and Political Parties will be able to put proposals in to their manifestos at each election.
Is that the EU wanting their cake and eating it?Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
At the moment the EU Citizens have the right to move around the EU. They will still have those rights.
At 11pm local time on March 29 2019, the UK is scheduled to leave the bloc.
What are you looking forward to most post us not being part of the bloc?
A welcome end to all this diatribe.
The next stupid referendum where we let half the population make a life-changing decision about something nobody even comes close to understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup