How many folks would not get round the BG if gps wasn't used. I suggest a lot less. This is also a timed fell runner event.
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How many folks would not get round the BG if gps wasn't used. I suggest a lot less. This is also a timed fell runner event.
NO!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
As DazTheSlug says, it is pretty easy to police, the High Peak Marathon among others require that you put any GPS device in a sealed bag. If the bag is opened before the end of the race you are DQ'd. The problem is that GPS enabled watches are little different in appearance to standard watches these days so it's hard to tell at a glance if someone is wearing one. If a race is marked as "Navigation experience required" then it's up to each individual to step up to the mark not drag things down to their level.
Having an idea of where you are in relation to features on the landscape is part of fell craft, you don't get that from being a dot on a screen (of any size). If the ordure hits the air distribution device then you need to know or figure out escape routes *from your current position*
It does come down to honesty/personal integrity as well.
<BGClub hat on>There is no practical way we, as a club, can police what individual contenders use during their attempt nor would we wish to. Again it comes down to honesty and integrity. The round for the most part follows existing paths, do you really need to follow a dot on a screen for that? There's a few sections, such as locating the ramps on Bowfell, that are BGR specific but that's what reccies are for.</BGClub hat off>
For most races there's little micro-navigation required, it's more a case of follow a path/line to a feature then turn one way or the other. Why use someone else's favoured "short-cut"? It might not suite you and if you don't know it well enough and how it relates to the general race route it's going to cost you time.
I'm a big fan of these attributes. But if half the field doesn't view the issue in the same way and are happily gaining an advantage without even perceiving themselves as dishonest, it would seem quixotic for me to handicap myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
I think some of the more athletic end of the field don't share our love of mountain-craft, or know they are not particularly good at it.
NoelQuote:
Originally Posted by noel
Without, in my case, being disingenuously modest, I don't think the world cares tuppence if you, me or Joe Jogger pootles round with a GPS (if I could work one), although purist eyes may be raised to the heavens, but at the pointy end if someone is following the trace on his watch to win medals over someone subscribing to the traditional ethics of fell running then that, I suggest, is a matter worthy of debate.
Sancho Panza
First it was Inov8s replacing Walshes, then it was compression socks and metric measurements, now the FRA has a Facebook... what next? Modern navigational devices!? Seems to me like fell racing is no longer the anachronistic, honest to goodness sport it once was.
I hear bog-snorkelling's still pretty wild. Tha GPS'll do yer no good in t'bog, lad.
It is worthy of debate. I think for the whole field not just those at the pointy end. As I said in my first post "If you want to follow a marked track then do a Trail race." If it's a particularly hard route and I do not know it (as in done it before or completed a recce), I would have to stop a lot and work my way around the route pretty slowly. I'm pretty good at navigation but only when walking. Rubbish if running. Having a track on my watch would be great but I wouldn't even dream of it! The hubby's navigation when running is really good (thumb compass) and he loves it. If the clag is down it gives him an advantage. Is it fair, even though he is probably mid pack that someone that is normally behind him in races beats him by following a GPS trail? Personally, I think that is pretty crap! I know it would be difficult to police. However, we could ensure that in a race scenario it's not fair play. It should be a hollow victory to gain any places no matter where you are in the pack by using GPS. At the Mourne Highline it was being discussed openly on the start line as if it was perfectly acceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
So to all FRA race organisers what can we do about it? Our race is a small one but there are a few places where knowing a certain line will be an advantage. I don't think we would go down the route of, seal it in a bag, as that is a bit of overkill for our little race. However, a little note stating our thoughts on it (in a polite way) would maybe stop some from using it or at least make them realise it's not acceptable in any FRA race situation.
We would love some thought's on this?
Sue i completely admire your viewpoint, and if everyone were of the same opinion then there wouldn't be an issue. But it's evident from everyone's anecdotes that many people don't share the same opinion.
ba-ba pasted a snippet of a conversation he had with someone on the FRA, and it said they would not be looking to outlaw GPS unless a specific 'non GPS' event (as it is almost impossible to police, i personally think that is a sensible stance to take). And seeing as most events are ran under FRA rules then i don't think there's much that can be done, unless organisers are specifically writing it into their rules, a la LDMT & Welsh1000.
I was attracted to fellrunning by three main things...
1 - a love for the fells
2 - the difficulty of the sport (i was at pro level in another sport before i started on the fells, so i'm fairly obviously up for a challenge).
3 - the fact that it remains generally free of cheating, and all the things which I've seen infest in sports like football.
But i'm a competitive bastard, and if others on the start line are obviously using GPS, and it is not strictly against the rules of the race in question, then i find it hard to swallow that i should disadvantage myself. As i say on many occasions on this very forum "it is a race, after all...."
(although on my favourite races, as has been said on here a few times, once you know them well enough, then it matters not whether you have GPS or not, as you'll run on memory). [although memory clearly didn't stop me getting lost on the LMV this year, in completely clear weather, in the 3rd year that i'd ran it, within half a mile of the finish!!]
Hehe - on a recent recce of leg 3 I managed to cock that up, even after moving from map to GPS watch OS grid reference, the finally to zooming in on my phone's OS map GPS!!! I was wanting to be accurate as there was a fair bit of compacted snow around and I didn't want to end up taking the quick way down! In the end, it turned out my gut instinct in reading the terrain was the right line and all the fancy navigation aids were just misleading :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
As I said before, I would agree that following a pre-loaded route seems to me to be against the ethics of fell-running, but it probably needs a consensus as to what counts as an unfair technological advantage. Even a compass is a form of man-made technology, and the very map used (unless it's an old 1" one!) will have had GPS input to the map.
I'm not saying make it against the rules. I'm saying make it "shameful" to do it. If we all thought well he/she is doing it so I will too then we may as well make fell running into Trail races. Nigel (and many on here) would never do it even if it meant he was the only one using a map and compass and everyone else was following an arrow. We know some did it at the Mourne Skyline so let's ask the question "Did you use a GPS tracker to navigate your way around?" I bet no one owns up to it which means they actually do know it's not right and not fair play. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
I think theres a difference between technology that enables you to run faster/further - eg lighter kit, better shoes, and technology that removes part of the skill element required to compete. Its always the same analogy for me and I've said it before - GPS use in races is like bolting a traditional classic lakes rock climb. If you cant do the climb without bolts then go away and do something less difficult. By all means come back and do the original climb when you have the skill, experience and abilities.
What he said :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark G
I decided to try it out at the weekend during a race I'd run many times. I had downloaded a trace from someone else's race from a few years ago and wanted to see if I could follow it during an actual race. However, on the day, I wasn't sure how to both navigate and tell my watch to start tracking my activity. In the end, I did the latter, which seemed to delete the navigation bit.
So it seems a level of technical competence is required before I can join this club of rule benders.
Noel, dont' join the club. Stick to your technical incompetence and your fellcraft competence :-) With luck others will follow your rule nonbending :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Personally still prefer reccying or map and compass, but some folk who maybe don't have the opportinity/time might feel safer with GPS as a back-up, not to navigate round the course but maybe if they get lost and just want to get back on the right track. I'm not saying i agree with it but I can understand why some would do it, and if its not breaking the rules I would'nt have a problem with it.
I think a distinction might be drawn between using a GPS device to stay safe and using one to get an advantage over race rivals to win prizes/medals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozzy42
As to rules: rules follow abuses and cases eg EPO wasn't illegal in cycling until riders started using it to advantage and then a rule had to be introduced and in fell running until Ted Pepper died in the 1978 3Peaks race there were no FRA safety rules but for the last 40 years there have been.
I too will always use a map and compass for fell running - its probably be an age thing but I am more comfortable with that anyway. I generally will have recced the route anyway and in bad weather, will write any significant bearings on the back of my hand for quick reference. I do carry a GPS enabled phone in my bum bag and have on occasion (though not in races) used it to determine my current grid reference when in thick cloud but then referred back to the map and compass. I also have the OS Map app installed but generally only use this when walking in areas I'm unfamiliar with and can't be bothered to keep getting the map out.
I wonder if the use of GPS has been raised to the FRA committee. There is certainly a case that could be made that in certain circumstances, individuals could gain an advantage over rivals in a race.
see post 8 in this thread (first page)Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
& there is the crux of the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
The hubby and I are so pleased this is being debated in a calm and orderly manner. As yet, on this thread no one has said "I used it in NI". We know it was used, so by not admitting it it shows that the ones that did use it know it was not the right thing to do. I really hope this thread does not get swept under the carpet just to get resurrected in a few races time when it happens again.
I think it's more likely that people who used GPS in the race in question just haven't seen the thread, or perhaps aren't even forum members. I count approx. 20 different forumites who have commented on this thread, and i guess only a fraction of them were racing in the race in question. This represents a small percentage of both the forum, the race in question, and the fellrunning community as a whole.
Although it would certainly be interesting and perhaps helpful to hear the opposite view of a strong case for using GPS.
On a slightly related note, i'm doing the UTS100 race in a couple of weeks (which in fact is GPS backup compulsory rather than just acceptable), and given the quite stringent entry criteria, i'm absolutely amazed at some of the questions fired at the organiser on their facebook page. The usual "what shoes to wear", "how easy is the route to follow" "where are the aid points" (i'd have thought that Pen-y-Pass didn't need much more description to pinpoint it's location!).
My personal favourite, a guy expressing dismay on seeing a photo of the Nantlle ridge, that it was too high, exposed and steep, and he wouldn't be able to manage it! although i think he was possibly on the 50 mile race with a lower entry standard, but should still be a competent mountain runner according to the requirements of the race).
there have been a range of views expressed on the thread and it is indeed a good thing that we can all accept that others are entitled to their views and there is not necessarily one correct answer. it would not be a good thing, in my opinion, if it turned into a witch-hunt. or if those who do (for whatever reason - 'good' or otherwise) use gps in races where it is not against the rules were to be demonized for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceTheSweeper
Cheers. Think I misread that the first time around.Quote:
Originally Posted by ba-ba
The point made about EPO is pertinent. There are those who will always push at the boundaries of the rules (written or unwritten). In a way it's how things move forward - the classic example from athletics is the Fosbury Flop in high jumping, it wasn't banned as no-one had ever considered it until Dick Fosbury worked out that his CofG actually passed under the bar so he didn't need to jump so high.
I've not used GPS devices in races but then I've not actually raced for a few years and back then they weren't exactly svelte or easy to use. I was never going to trouble the sharp end of any race anyway so wouldn't have gained much if anything if I had used one. The middle third of most races are a procession, you aren't going to get lost.
If you are at the sharp end of a race then you aren't going to be wanting to look at a watch every minute or so to check if there's a shortcut coming up and you'll be breathing so hard you won't hear a beep unless it's the volume of the Land's End fog horn!
Potentially it's more use to the tail end charlies who might not know the route and are out of sight of the group in front when they make a crucial turn, I'd argue for the safety case in this instance and wouldn't be bothered whether such use was declared or not, I'd rather they were out and enjoying themselves.
I'd disagree. You're forgetting that those at the front of the field will often have better hearing than some of those further back ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
Watch beeps are quite obvious, maybe a bit less so in a race but if you know to listen out for it (i.e. it's foggy, you know you don't know the route) you'll notice it. I sometimes use an in-built timer in my watch to time intervals and it's noticeable enough when running at your max in many different surroundings. In fact some people have their watch set to beep every km/mile, which in a race is also very noticeable when within 5-10m (and give me a reason to try and drop them they're that irritating!)
Most watches also vibrate (which would have helped were I using one when I went temporarily deaf at Castle Carr last year).
Only speaking from experience of using a forerunner tracker watch. I imagine the Suunto follow-me-trail jobbies have an in-built dolby as they're bigger :p
I think there's actually been quite a balanced reasoned discussion on here with a few people advocating the use of GPS watches for navigation. However, based on the second half of your post, you know exactly where to go if you want to start a discussion with people with a "strong case", or at least their perception of a strong case!Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
Out of interest I just searched the Facebook group for "gps navigation", which flagged up a post from a couple of years ago discussing exactly that, albeit in the context of mountain marathons rather than fell races, where I don't think there is any discussion to be had at all! However people still argued their cases, Boff Whalley replied as poetically as ever though... "Take your fancy watches off. Run in the countryside and enjoy being free of the encroaching and relentless digital lock-in. Look around you. Look at your map, and at the ground. You're in the world. Just you and the hills and the sky and the earth. Work it out. No ones and noughts, no flashing lights, no bleeping alarms. Just you and the rolling planet.
I wouldn't suggest banning GPS devices – I'd just appeal to people to understand why they're out on the hills in the first place. For space and time and the challenge of finding your way around the countryside."
Nice one Boff. If only all posts on Facebook were so eloquently put I might be tempted to to sign up.
Surly if a race specifies Navigation Skills Required (NS) and you have to carry map and compass then using GPS is just plain wrong.
Yep agree, if its only used as a back-up when things go wrong then I'm OK with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
On this subject, I received confirmation of entry to Ennerdale this morning, and interesting to note that in CFRA races (Ennerdale, Wasdale, Scafell Pike), the use of GPS has been specifically prohibited in the race rules...
I ran everyone of my 400 fell races with a Garmin on but never had preprogrammed data on it.
It was only used for mileage and elevation in my personal logs.
Would i be barred from wearing it?
It does say they can be carried for safety, but not used competitively.
I have my doubts how this can be policed, but will certainly respect the wishes of the organisers.
We are totally made up about this. Well done CFRA on making this decision. Hopefully now that one of the big boys have gone down this route the rest will follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
Us little boys at the "Litton Christmas Cracker" intend to follow suit ;-)
What has been prohibited? Use for navigating or wearing to record? - I always wear and turn on my GPS, but do not use it for route finding - in fact it will not store a route except "live" in the take me back the way I have come sense, and it will point at a stored location "as the crow flies". It can be used as a compass, but it is more fuss than an actual compass.
Unfortunately people may cheat - and when the clag is down it will make a huge difference - as will having been shown the route to the inch by an expert. Is this going to be prohibited as well?
I would imagine using to record would be ok, but i'm not the organiser... i guess any specific queries should be directed to them.
I carried a hand-held GPS unit in my pack at the weekend, simply to record the route i took (there were a couple of sections where route choice is vital), so that i could then look at the route i took, against an OS map. when i got home.
Found it very interesting to review, although agree with the majority view that if i had been reliant on it for navigation, it would certainly have slowed me down, as i was nearer the 'sharp end' of the race. although having now done the race twice (and this year managed to actually run vaguely in the correct direction for most of it), i'd quite happily run the course again off memory. And it was a 2.5 hour race, so if i am capable of getting round an 'AL' off memory, after 3 years of fell running, i do doubt if GPS really is going to be such a "game changer" fr those at the front end of big races, who have been racng and recceing routes for years...
Seems like a sensible approach from CFRA.
I don't see there being any major issues with policing. On the whole, fell runners are an ethical bunch and don't have any problem pointing out anyone who is abusing the regulations. I remember one poor soul who attempted to run Kentmere horseshoe with his number pinned to his backpack shortly after the rules were tightened in this respect. He got no end of abuse and sheepishly moved his number to prevent further ridicule.
I guess the only problem is distinguishing people using a device solely for recording and not navigation but if it is made to be seen as unethical or preferably prohibited then I would have thought the majority would self enforce it.
I cannot see how recceing a route, whether alone or with someone with local knowledge, can be compared to using a Global Positioning System to navigate that route in the heat of a race whatever the conditions.
There are plenty of devices around that record information during an activity that can be downloaded later but do not assist in the navigation of the route.
Anyone who enters a race which states that Navigational Skills are required should have those skills and if they have not or cannot be bothered to learn them there are plenty of fully marked trail races about.
Spot one!Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
" I cannot see how recceing a route, whether alone or with someone with local knowledge, can be compared to using a Global Positioning System to navigate that route in the heat of a race whatever the conditions."
They are clearly very different, but both can result in a tremendous advantage, particularly when the visibility is poor - having run at night in zero visibility I know how useful a route guiding GPS can be, and how we were stopped in our tracks when the battery went flat, despite being on a "well known" path.
Culturally, recces and being shown the way by an expert will always be more accepted than a route loaded GPS, but the end results may not be that different.
Having said that, culture is important. Unfortunately, from the cultural viewpoint, using, or "cheating" with a GPS is easy.
Every Race/event I have ever done has always been done on sight for the first time of doing it, I have done many races multiple times and of course noticed a difference in times the more often I attempt a particular race, even though I own a GPS it never occurs to me to take it to a Race or event, I would sooner carry a little more sustenance than a passenger in my kit.
However when I look back over the events I have done the first attempt has always been the most enjoyable simply because I love poring over maps and planning the route of an unknown event, and then on the day putting my interpretation of an unknown route into practice, for me the prep is part of the pleasure of any event.
Personally I think carrying a tracker/Locater makes more sense than a GPS no matter how competent you are with map and compass or even GPS, that way you still get to see where you went on OS maps when you get back home, plus if the tracker has a S.O.S. Locater beacon and things go pear shaped on an event for you, or even another competitor for that matter, the beacon has a far better chance of ensuring a favorable outcome than a GPS Guidance device plus it could make life a little easier for the RO.
Yes I Know no technology is infallible but there is now`t wrong with hedging your bets
Travs, did you enter ennerdale online or by post? Just wondering if i should have received something from them. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs